How to Make Work Psychologically Rich: Lessons from Shigehiro Oishi

For years, happiness and purpose have shaped how we think about well-being. But according to Shigehiro Oishi, Professor of Psychology at the University of Chicago, there’s a third dimension that might be just as essential, especially for those seeking depth in both life and work.

Oishi is a leading researcher in the psychology of well-being whose work has helped expand our understanding of how people across cultures define and pursue a good life. His latest research centers on psychological richness—a concept that adds texture, curiosity, and complexity to traditional models of well-being.

In this episode of Meaningful Work Matters, we sit down with Oishi to explore how this framework challenges conventional thinking, what it means in the workplace, and how we can invite more richness into our daily lives, even in subtle ways.

Psychological Richness Defined

Psychological richness is the idea that a good life isn’t only about feeling good (happiness / hedonia) or doing good (meaning / eudaimonia). It’s also about experiencing a wide range of emotions, ideas, and moments—especially the unexpected ones.

Unlike happiness, which favors comfort and pleasure, and meaning, which often stems from stability and service, psychological richness is defined by:

• Novelty and variety

• Complexity and surprise

• Moments that shift our perspective

As Oishi puts it:

“It’s not always pleasant—but it adds texture, wonder, and growth.”

He likens it to eating dark chocolate: a sensory experience that’s sometimes bitter, complex, and memorable.

Why Psychological Richness Matters

Research from Oishi and his colleagues suggests that people who pursue psychological richness are:

• More curious and open to new experiences

• More likely to take intellectual or creative risks

• Less likely to avoid discomfort if it leads to personal growth

In one study, students who self-identified as psychologically rich were more likely to choose challenging classes—not for the grade, but for the learning. In another experiment, simply reflecting on the value of richness increased participants’ willingness to wait (at a cost) to satisfy their curiosity.

Psychological richness, in other words, invites exploration for its own sake. It helps people engage with life not just for outcomes, but for the stories and perspectives they collect along the way.

Psychological Richness at Work

How does this idea show up in the workplace?

Soren and Oishi explore how certain jobs, like those in the arts, often rank low in satisfaction and even meaning, yet still attract and retain people because of their psychological richness. These roles tend to offer:

• Freedom and autonomy

• Creative problem-solving

• A sense of unpredictability or play

Oishi highlights data showing that while social workers or teachers often rate their jobs as deeply meaningful, editors and artists don’t always do the same—yet they still choose to stay. One likely reason? Their work is stimulating, dynamic, and creatively engaging, even if not always fulfilling in a traditional sense.

Psychological richness also helps explain why some people thrive in fast-paced, ambiguous environments, while others find comfort and satisfaction in routine. It’s not that one is better than the other. Rather, different people (and roles) may emphasize different forms of well-being.

Simplicity vs. Complexity: The Case for Generalists

Another practical insight from Oishi’s research: generalists tend to experience more psychological richness than specialists.

In studies where participants imagined themselves in narrowly defined, repetitive roles versus more open-ended, cross-functional ones, those in “generalist” scenarios reported greater curiosity and psychological engagement. They also scored higher on behavioral measures of curiosity.

This doesn’t mean specialization is bad. But for organizations looking to spark innovation and learning, it suggests that task variety, cross-disciplinary teams, and autonomy can help create environments that support psychological richness.

Even in structured jobs, small tweaks can make a difference. For example, changing a routine, trying a new route to work, or reframing a task through metaphor or storytelling.

Challenges and Considerations

While psychological richness offers many benefits, it’s not without limits. Oishi notes that high levels of novelty and complexity can also lead to overwhelm, especially if experiences aren’t processed or integrated over time.

He cites the example of Anthony Bourdain, whose life was filled with adventure and cultural exploration, but who still struggled with meaning and coherence. Without reflection, even a life filled with experiences can feel fragmented or hollow.

Richness works best when paired with the ability to make meaning from experience. Otherwise, it risks becoming noise rather than depth.

Takeaways

• Psychological richness is a third, vital dimension of well-being. It complements happiness and meaning by emphasizing complexity, exploration, and new perspectives.

• Curiosity and growth often stem from discomfort. People who value richness are more willing to try unfamiliar things, take intellectual risks, and learn from unexpected situations.

• Work can be rich, even when it’s not always meaningful or satisfying. Roles that allow creativity, autonomy, and surprise can offer value beyond traditional success metrics.

• Psychological richness can be cultivated. Even small changes—like saying yes to a stretch assignment or taking a new path to work—can enrich our experiences.

• Reflection matters. To truly feel psychologically rich, we must integrate and make sense of our experiences—not just accumulate them.

Final Thoughts

A good life isn’t always sweet. Sometimes it’s complex. Sometimes it’s uncomfortable. But as Shige Oishi reminds us, it’s often those experiences that stay with us. The ones that challenge our assumptions, stretch our thinking, and add layers to our story.

If we want to design lives and workplaces that are truly fulfilling, we may need to look beyond happiness and meaning alone. Psychological richness invites us to embrace life’s full spectrum, and in doing so, discover a more complete picture of well-being.

Resources for Further Exploration

• Read Shige’s latest book: A Life in Three Dimensions

• Learn more about Shige Oishi’s research

Fix the System, Not the People: Lessons from Jordan Friesen

When it comes to workplace mental health, many organizations ask how their employees can better manage stress. But what if we asked how to stop causing it in the first place?

In this episode of Meaningful Work Matters, Andrew Soren is joined by Jordan Friesen, occupational therapist and Founder and President of Mindset Mental Health Strategy, to unpack why traditional well-being efforts often fall short. Drawing from lived experience, years of leadership consulting, and national policy work, Friesen makes the case for a systems-level approach to mental health at work.

The conversation challenges leaders to think beyond individual interventions and toward the design of work itself—what’s creating harm, what needs to change, and how to build cultures that prioritize health before heroism.

Redesigning Work, Not Workers

One of Friesen’s central arguments is that most workplace mental health strategies are misdirected.

“There’s a lot of focus on giving people hard hats,” he says—referring to programs like mindfulness training, EAPs, or resilience workshops. “But that doesn’t help if bricks are still falling from the floors above.”

In other words, it’s not enough to teach people how to cope. Leaders need to examine the actual sources of stress (e.g. poor communication, excessive workload, unclear roles) and fix them at the source.

Friesen frames this as a design problem, not a performance issue. He draws from his early clinical experience and systems training to argue that the structure of work itself must be addressed if we want sustainable well-being. As he puts it:

“The issue isn’t that people aren’t resilient. The issue is that the system keeps wearing them down.”

Safety Comes First—Then Meaning

Friesen also speaks to a common tension in many purpose-driven organizations: people are deeply committed to their work, yet still burning out. Why? Because meaning alone isn’t protective.

“Meaning can be a powerful motivator,” he notes, “but if the environment isn’t safe… it can actually make things worse.” Healthcare workers, educators, and nonprofit professionals often derive deep meaning from their work, but are also among the most at risk for burnout and moral distress.

As Soren points out, this is similar to Scott Barry Kaufman’s reimagining of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs not as a pyramid, but as a boat. The hull represents safety and stability; the sail, our potential and purpose. Without the hull, the sail doesn’t matter.

Leadership That Supports Mental Health

While systems need to change, Friesen is clear that leaders have a major role to play, and often underestimate their influence. “Your direct manager has as much impact on your mental health as your spouse or partner,” he shares, referencing a global survey of over 5,000 employees.

This level of influence demands a new kind of leadership. One that requires skill development to notice when someone is struggling, ask questions with empathy, and connect people to the right support.

Friesen outlines key skills he feels managers need:

• The ability to give and receive feedback (not just praise or criticism)

• Emotional literacy: being able to name and acknowledge feelings—both yours and others’

• The courage to show vulnerability and model openness

“Empathy isn’t just a trait. It’s a communication skill. It needs to be practiced out loud.”

Measuring What Matters

Despite growing awareness of mental health at work, Friesen notes that most organizations still don’t measure their efforts in meaningful ways. Voluntary standards like Canada’s national psychological safety framework exist, but uptake is low and few organizations track progress over time.

Why? “As soon as you measure it, you become accountable for it,” he says. That can feel risky to leaders who aren’t sure where to start.

Still, some are stepping up. Soren highlights organizations like DHL, which are rolling out regular “Are You Okay?” surveys across regions to better understand and respond to employee needs. Friesen encourages employers to take both a qualitative and quantitative approach: collect data, but also elevate stories and lived experiences.

Why This Conversation Matters

If we want people to find meaning in their work, we have to start by ensuring that work isn’t hurting them. Until we build systems that prevent harm and train leaders who support well-being, individual interventions will only go so far.

This episode offers a grounded, hopeful roadmap. One that starts with listening, learning, and the willingness to take shared responsibility for how we work.

Key Takeaways

• Mental health at work is a systems issue, not an individual one.

• Leaders have significant influence over employee well-being and need better training to support it.

• Meaningful work depends on foundational safety. Without it, even purpose-driven roles can lead to burnout.

• Measurement matters, ****but it must include both data and personal stories.

• Empathy is a leadership skill, and like any skill, it can be practiced.

Resources for Further Exploration

• Jordan Friesen on LinkedIn

• Mindset Mental Health Strategy Inc.

• National Standard of Canada for Psychological Health and Safety in the Workplace (CSA Group) - LINK

• How We Feel App (Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence)

Purpose Beyond the Self: Lessons from Kendall Cotton Bronk

In this episode of Meaningful Work Matters, Andrew Soren speaks with Kendall Cotton Bronk, Professor of Psychology at Claremont Graduate University and Principal Investigator of the Adolescent Moral Development Lab. A developmental psychologist with over 20 years of research experience, Kendall studies how young people cultivate purpose, character, and moral growth across diverse cultural contexts. Her work has spanned the U.S., Europe, Africa, and Asia, and has been featured in outlets like NPR, Forbes, and The Wall Street Journal.

Together, they explore how purpose evolves over a lifetime, why it must be paired with character to be socially constructive, and how cultural and generational context shape what purpose looks like in action.

What Is Purpose—and Why Does It Matter?

Kendall begins by clarifying what she means when she talks about purpose—not simply passion or goals, but something more enduring and outward-facing.

Her definition centers around three key elements:

1. A far-horizon goal that gives direction, even if it’s never fully “achieved.”

2. A personal commitment to act, where the individual actively works toward that goal.

3. A desire to contribute beyond the self, leaving a meaningful mark on the world.

“A purpose isn’t just something we dream about,” she explains. “It’s something we engage in because it matters so deeply to us—and it moves our gaze beyond ourselves and into the broader world.”

This orientation, she argues, is central to why purpose supports well-being. When we’re focused on contributing to others—whether through family, community, faith, art, or work—we not only feel more hopeful, we help build a better world around us.

How Purpose Develops Over Time

Andrew and Kendall dig into the developmental nature of purpose, especially how it takes shape during adolescence and young adulthood—times when identity questions like “Who am I?” often give rise to questions like “What do I want to contribute?”

“We find that the process of figuring out who you are is closely tied to figuring out what your purpose is,” she says.

Still, she emphasizes that purpose can emerge at any age. Many people don’t fully form their purpose until midlife or beyond. Older adults often find renewed purpose through caregiving, mentoring, or encore careers—especially when their earlier work or roles shift.

Why Context and Culture Matter

Purpose may be a universal need, but its expression is deeply shaped by culture. Kendall shares insights from her international research, including studies in Taiwan, Liberia, and across Europe, that show how local norms, values, and expectations shape what young people see as purposeful.

In Taiwan, for example, adolescents spoke frequently about needing their parents’ support to pursue their purpose—something Kendall notes is less emphasized in more individualistic cultures like the U.S.

“Purpose is always contextual. It reflects the environment, the people around us, and the relationships we’re embedded in.”

This view stems from her lab’s use of Relational Developmental Systems theory, which sees individuals and their contexts as co-constructing one another.

Thriving people support thriving communities—and vice versa.

A Crisis of Reflection: The Role of Mind-Wandering

One of the more surprising takeaways from the episode is how critical mind-wandering is for cultivating purpose—and how rare those moments are today.

Kendall explains that the brain’s default mode network (the one activated during daydreaming) plays a key role in helping us make meaning and connect dots in our lives. But as digital distractions crowd out unstructured thought, people—especially young people—have fewer opportunities for reflection.

“I worry about the lack of mind-wandering,” she admits. “Those moments of looking out the window, thinking about the future, making meaning—they matter.”

While tech does provide access to causes and communities that can ignite purpose, she emphasizes the importance of reclaiming space for stillness and thought.

When Purpose Needs a Moral Compass

Not all purpose is pro-social.

That’s why Kendall is adamant that purpose must be paired with character and virtue—qualities like humility, compassion, and wisdom.

“Purpose in the wrong direction can be destructive,” she says. “Without values to guide it, it can be misused.”

In her work with schools, she encourages educators to go beyond lists of character traits and instead focus on practical wisdom—knowing which virtues to use, when, and how.

This mirrors Aristotle’s concept of phronesis, which Andrew points out is foundational to making ethical, context-sensitive decisions in both education and leadership.

Shared Purpose Starts with Shared Relationships

Later in the conversation, the focus turns to shared purpose—what happens when families, communities, or organizations work toward a common goal. Kendall shares findings from her study of families with shared philanthropic or business endeavors. In these families, shared purpose wasn’t forced—it grew out of strong relationships, regular communication, and respect between generations.

“They made time for fun, for listening, and for learning from each other,” she says. “And the older generation was willing to let the younger generation shape the future of that purpose.”

Andrew draws a connection here to organizations: it’s not enough to declare a mission. Leaders must help people see how their work contributes, and also create space for individuals to connect with that purpose in their own way.

The Tension Between Personal and Organizational Purpose

A recurring theme in the episode is the tension between individual purpose and institutional missions. Can organizations really foster purpose in a way that’s authentic—and not coercive?

Kendall acknowledges that this is a challenge. Top-down messaging rarely works. But when people are supported in seeing how their values align with the organization’s goals—and when they’re given freedom to shape that connection—shared purpose can emerge in powerful ways.

“Whenever possible, people should be able to make those connections themselves. That’s when it becomes meaningful.”

Takeaways for Anyone Supporting Purpose

• Purpose is built through identity exploration, action, and contribution.

• Reflection matters—we need more space for mind-wandering and meaning-making.

• Purpose is shaped by context, and every generation faces new challenges and opportunities.

• Character and wisdom are essential for ensuring that purpose is socially constructive.

• Shared purpose grows from trust, dialogue, and a willingness to adapt across generations.

Resources for Further Exploration

• Kendall Cotton Bronk – Faculty Page at Claremont Graduate University

• Research Lab: Adolescent Moral Development Lab

Rethinking Meaningfulness Through a Cultural Lens: Lessons from Mohsen Joshanloo

In this episode of Meaningful Work Matters, host Andrew Soren speaks with Dr. Mohsen Joshanloo, a personality and cross-cultural psychologist whose research explores mental well-being, emotions, personality traits, and culture. Mohsen is an Associate Professor in the Department of Psychology at Keimyung University in South Korea and an Honorary Principal Fellow at the Centre for Wellbeing Science at the University of Melbourne. With a global perspective, he incorporates data from countries across six continents to challenge the assumption that emotional happiness and autonomy are universal ideals.

In their conversation, Soren and Joshanloo explore how different cultures define wellbeing, the phenomenon of “fear of happiness,” and why a sense of purpose may matter more than emotional happiness—especially at work.

The Western Bias in Wellbeing Models

Joshanloo opens with a critique of many dominant models of psychological wellbeing, which often originate in Western societies. These models prioritize individualistic traits like self-esteem, autonomy, and personal growth—an assumption that meaning must be self-generated to be authentic. These ideals don't always translate across cultures.

“The criticism isn’t that other cultures don’t value autonomy or purpose,” Joshanloo explains, “but that the definition of those things changes depending on cultural context.”

In what Joshanloo describes as collectivist or traditional societies, meaning is often derived from social roles, tradition, or guidance from elders. Far from being seen as conformist, these sources of meaning are deeply valued and can form the foundation of a fulfilling life.

Eudaimonic Wellbeing vs. Emotional Happiness

A central distinction in the conversation is between emotional happiness and eudaimonic wellbeing. Emotional happiness refers to short-term positive feelings, while eudaimonic wellbeing is rooted in dimensions like purpose, personal growth, and living in alignment with one’s values.

Mohsen’s longitudinal research has shown that:

• Emotional happiness and eudaimonic wellbeing are correlated in the short term.

• Over time, eudaimonic wellbeing predicts future emotional happiness—but not the other way around.

This finding suggests that chasing emotional highs may not lead to sustainable wellbeing. Instead, investing in purpose and meaning may be a more durable path to fulfillment.

Understanding Fear of Happiness

One of Mohsen’s most well-known contributions is his long-running research on the fear of happiness. Across 25+ countries, his team has explored why people in some cultures are hesitant to fully embrace or express happiness.

This fear isn’t about rejecting joy altogether, but rather a belief that intense happiness may lead to negative outcomes—like envy, loss, or punishment. In some cultures, visible happiness may invite the “evil eye” or signal carelessness, making restraint a form of protection.

“People may fear emotional happiness,” says Joshanloo, “but rarely do they fear growth, purpose, or contribution.”

This insight challenges the idea that emotional happiness is the ultimate human goal and helps expand the conversation around what it means to support wellbeing—particularly in diverse or global settings.

What Purpose Tells Us About Money and Satisfaction

In a global dataset spanning 94 countries, Joshanloo examined the relationship between income, purpose, and life satisfaction. His findings were striking: people without a clear sense of purpose placed more importance on income when evaluating their lives. For those with a strong sense of purpose, the correlation between income and life satisfaction was significantly weaker.

In other words, meaning can buffer our reliance on external markers of success.

This insight has direct implications for how we think about motivation, performance, and compensation at work. While money is important, purpose may be a more stable source of satisfaction—especially when work feels meaningful.

From Research to the Workplace: Why Mattering Comes First

So, how can organizations apply these insights?

Joshanloo emphasizes that before people can pursue purpose, they need to believe they matter. Feeling invisible or powerless undermines motivation, whereas believing you can make a difference is the first step toward purpose-driven engagement.

“You can’t make people feel they don’t matter and then expect them to be purposeful,” he says.

For leaders, this means that fostering inclusion and psychological safety is not just a cultural goal—it’s a strategic one. Only when employees feel valued can they fully engage with their work and find meaning in it.

Resources for Further Exploration

• Mohsen Joshanloo’s personal website

• Featured open-access research:

  • Authenticity and Wellbeing

  • Aversion to Happiness

  • Culture and Wellbeing

Ancient Wisdom in the Age of AI: Lessons from Sara Wolkenfeld

In this episode of Meaningful Work Matters, Andrew speaks with Sara Wolkenfeld, Chief Learning Officer at Sefaria, an online database and interface for Jewish texts. Wolkenfeld is a member of Class Six of the Wexner Field Fellowship, a rabbinic alumna of the David Hartman Center at the Hartman Institute of North America, and serves as Scholar-in-Residence at Ohev Sholom Congregation in Washington, DC.

Her current research and writing focus on the intersection between Jewish ethics and advancements in technology, with her work appearing in publications like The Atlantic, First Things, and Religion Dispatches.

Together, Soren and Wolkenfeld explore how ancient wisdom can help us navigate modern challenges, particularly around technology, meaningful work, and finding balance in our lives.

Finding Purpose in Work Through Ancient Jewish Wisdom

Wolkenfeld introduces a fundamental distinction in Jewish thought between two types of work. The Hebrew word, עֲבוֹדָה (Avodah) refers to work without craftsmanship or creativity – essentially, assigned labor. It's the word used in the Bible to describe the labor of enslaved Israelites in Egypt. In contrast, מְלָאכָה (Melechah) describes creative labor – work that you invest in and feel proud of.

"In Jewish thought, the same word: מְלָאכָה (Melechah), is used to describe the intentional work that God put into creating the world in the book of Genesis and the kinds of labor that are forbidden to traditional Jews on the Sabbath," Wolkenfeld explains.

This framework also establishes a rhythm between work and rest that has guided Jewish practice for millennia. Rabbinic sources emphasize that the mandate not to work on the seventh day is inextricably bound to the mandate to work on the other six days. This duality highlights the importance and value of purposeful work as a central part of human existence.

AI, Technology, and Finding the Divine in Our Work

Wolkenfeld goes on to discuss how technology, namely AI, can serve as a partner in meaningful work rather than a threat to it. She argues that what makes us human isn't necessarily the ability to do any job “better” than AI, but rather our capacity to love our work and find meaning in it.

When considering which tasks to delegate to AI, Wolkenfeld proposes asking not whether AI can do something better, but rather: "How do we want to spend our time?" She gives the example of using AI to draft routine emails while reserving more relationship-building communications for personal attention. This approach allows us to choose where we invest our creative energy based on what brings us meaning.

"If AI wants to wash my dishes or organize my cabinets or do my laundry, that's great. Those aren't places where I particularly feel that I channel the divine. But I'm going to keep writing essays because that's something that helps me form and feel I am."

Technology as a Partner in Meaningful Work

Wolkenfeld emphasizes the importance of organizations having a clear mission and strong values to guide technological decisions.

Using Sefaria as an example, she explains how they've used machine learning to enhance access to interconnected Jewish texts. Traditional Jewish texts are "heavily interconnected" through a layering system of references and quotes. Machine learning allows them to surface these connections as links, making complex textual relationships visible to readers without years of specialized training.

However, Wolkenfeld also describes instances where they've chosen not to implement certain technologies, such as chatbots that would provide definitive answers to religious questions. This decision reflects their commitment to preserving the multiplicity of interpretations central to Jewish textual tradition. "Fundamental to the idea of having all these different kinds of texts is the idea that there's generally not one right answer," she explains. "You would be doing it wrong if you came up with one right answer."

Rest, Work, and Setting Boundaries

Returning to an earlier theme in the conversation, Wolkenfeld discusses how the Jewish concept of Sabbath provides clear boundaries between work and rest that can help address modern work-life balance issues.

She notes how our modern definition of "work" often depends on context rather than the action itself – the same activity might be considered work or leisure depending on who asked us to do it. In contrast, the Jewish Sabbath focuses on specific actions regardless of context, providing clearer boundaries.

While acknowledging that strict boundaries don't work for everyone (some prefer integration while others prefer segregation between work and life), Wolkenfeld suggests that having clear organizational guidelines can help, even if they sometimes feel constraining.

This leads to another important insight about meaningful work: "Being in a state of invested, meaningful work doesn't mean that it doesn't still feel like work." Finding purpose doesn't eliminate challenge or difficulty – in fact, wrestling with difficulty can be part of what makes work meaningful.

Leadership and the Human Element in Work

As their conversation nears its end, Soren asks what advice Wolkenfeld would offer leaders trying to create environments where people find both meaning and balance.

Wolkenfeld emphasizes that leaders need to model their commitments, not just talk about them. She shares a Jewish wisdom saying about stepping up to be the person needed when no one else is there. In the context of AI and technology, she interprets this as identifying the uniquely human element we bring to our work.

In a world increasingly dominated by technological tools, Wolkenfeld suggests leaders should focus on what they uniquely contribute that technology cannot replace. When leaders demonstrate enthusiasm for their unique human contributions, they naturally inspire others to do the same.

When asked about her greatest hope for the future of work, Wolkenfeld returns to the ancient wisdom that began their conversation. She finds inspiration in how enduring work has been throughout human history and shares the Talmudic insight that people fundamentally need work to occupy their minds, hands, and souls.

Rather than fearing technology might make human work obsolete, Wolkenfeld expresses optimism about our capacity to find new forms of meaningful work. She believes humans are deeply driven to make a difference in the world, and this drive will continue to express itself regardless of technological change.

Key Takeaways

• Ancient wisdom provides frameworks for addressing modern challenges, showing that while technology changes, human questions about purpose and meaning endure.

• When navigating new technologies, focus on core values and mission rather than adopting technology for its own sake or resisting it out of fear.

• Leaders should model both boundaries and commitment, demonstrating what they uniquely bring to the table that technology cannot replace.

• Meaningful work doesn't always feel comfortable or easy – the challenge can be part of what makes it meaningful.

Resources for Further Exploration

• Sefaria: An online platform making Jewish texts accessible (www.sefaria.org)

• Sara Wolkenfeld's articles in The Atlantic and Religious Dispatches

• Jewish texts exploring the concept of מְלָאכָה (Melechah, or, creative labor) and Shabbat (Sabbath)

• Connect with Sara Wolkenfeld through Sefaria or at Ohev Sholom Congregation in Washington, DC.

Offering and Killing Meaning at Work: Lessons from Petra Kipfelsberger

In this episode of Meaningful Work Matters, we speak with Petra Kipfelsberger, Associate Professor for Leadership and Organizational Behaviour at BI Norwegian Business School.

With her extensive background in leadership research and coaching experience at the C-level, Kipfelsberger brings deep expertise on how leaders can inspire meaningful work. Her research focuses on how individuals and organizations thrive during uncertainty, with particular attention to visionary leadership, meaningful work, and coaching. Throughout the episode, Kipfelsberger shares evidence-based insights on how leaders can authentically communicate purpose and foster meaning, while avoiding behaviors that diminish employees' sense of significance.

Leaders Offer Meaning Rather Than Make It

Kipfelsberger introduces an important distinction in how leaders influence meaning.

She challenges the common assumption that leaders directly create meaning for employees. Instead, effective leaders present opportunities—what she calls "offerings"—that allow employees to discover their own sense of purpose.

This view recognizes that meaning remains personal while still acknowledging the leader's critical role in providing context and vision. When leaders understand this balance, they create environments where employees connect their work to larger purposes without forcing that connection.

Authentic Leadership Starts With Personal Meaning

Kipfelsberger builds on this foundation with a straightforward principle: leaders need to find meaning in their own work before they can help others find it. She puts it simply:

"You cannot give what you don't have."

When leaders genuinely find their work meaningful, their communication becomes naturally energetic and convincing. Their visionary leadership emerges as authentic expression rather than rehearsed technique. Employees quickly sense when a leader truly believes in the vision versus when they're just going through the motions.

Timing Matters

Kipfelsberger's research reveals a surprising insight about when visionary leadership makes the most impact. She found that a leader's vision and purpose communication matters most in the first years of working with team members—with this influence extending up to six years.

This finding has clear implications for how we think about onboarding employees. Rather than treating it as a brief orientation, effective leaders view it as an extended journey of meaning development that shapes an employee's entire experience.

During these early years, consistently communicating vision and purpose creates a foundation for long-term engagement. As time passes, employees develop their own sources of meaning and rely less on their leader's vision.

The Dark Side: How Leaders Kill Meaning

The conversation then shifts to what Kipfelsberger calls "meaning killing"—leadership behaviors that diminish employees' sense of purpose. She offers a common example: when a manager assigns an urgent task with a random deadline, then fails to acknowledge when employees complete it.

Other meaning-damaging behaviors include not providing feedback, ignoring contributions, and trying to dictate meaning rather than offering it.

This concept shares similarities with what Zach Mercurio calls "anti-mattering"—when employees feel invisible or insignificant in their workplace. Over time, these behaviors make meaningful work harder to maintain. Even inspiring visions fall apart when daily interactions communicate to employees that their work doesn't matter.

What Would Viktor Frankl Do?

The discussion explores how Viktor Frankl's ideas about meaning apply to leadership. Kipfelsberger has studied Frankl extensively, and she explains how his concept of self-transcendence transforms leadership approaches.

Frankl's view shifts focus from self-actualization to self-transcendence—finding purpose by contributing to something beyond oneself. This positions leadership as service rather than self-centered achievement. As Kipfelsberger notes, "It's not about me. It's about giving to others, and then this will help me find meaning as a byproduct."

This connects to visionary leadership, as good leaders help employees see how their work contributes to something larger. Frankl's perspective on transcendence echoes themes explored in our conversation with Scott Barry Kaufman, who similarly challenges traditional notions of Maslow's hierarchy and emphasizes the importance of serving something beyond ourselves.

Frankl's emphasis on finding meaning in specific moments also helps leaders connect daily tasks to broader purpose.

Family Businesses Show Meaningful Leadership in Action

Kipfelsberger next shares research on family-run businesses, where employees report higher satisfaction levels. She found this stems from the authentic passion and long-term vision that family leaders communicate.

Family businesses operate with a different time perspective—they make decisions with future generations in mind. This creates a culture valuing people and well-being over short-term results.

As Soren notes in the conversation, this connects to Indigenous wisdom like the "seven generations" philosophy, which teaches that decisions made today should consider their impact on descendants seven generations into the future—roughly 150 years. This principle encourages long-term stewardship, sustainability, and responsibility that extends far beyond quarterly profits.

In family businesses, this similar multigenerational thinking shapes daily operations and creates authenticity that resonates with employees.

Practical Leadership Strategies

Kipfelsberger concludes with practical approaches for leaders who want to foster meaningful work:

• Start with authentic communication about your purpose, especially during early interactions with team members

• Frame messages positively instead of using negations

• Create space for meaningful dialogue, possibly through coaching

• Connect big-picture vision with concrete, immediate actions

• Provide timely feedback and acknowledgment

These strategies help leaders avoid becoming "meaning killers" and create environments where employees discover their own sense of purpose.

Kipfelsberger emphasizes that fostering meaning doesn't require grand gestures - simple acknowledgments and regular feedback can make a significant difference in how employees experience their work, ultimately leading to greater satisfaction and engagement.

Resources for Further Exploration

• Kipfelsberger, P., & Kark, R. (2018). 'Killing me softly with his/her song': How leaders dismantle followers' sense of work meaningfulness. Frontiers in Psychology, 9, 654.

• Kipfelsberger, P., Braun, S., Fladerer, M. P., & Dragoni, L. (2022). Developing authenticity: A quasi-experimental investigation. Personality and Individual Differences, 198, 111825.

• Viktor Frankl's book "Man's Search for Meaning"

The Five Dimensions of Job Crafting: Lessons from Rob Baker

In this episode of Meaningful Work Matters, host Andrew Soren speaks with Rob Baker, a leading expert on job crafting and founder of Tailored Thinking, a pioneering evidence-based positive psychology consultancy. Named as one of HR Magazine's Most Influential Thinkers (#8 in 2023), Baker is a TEDX speaker, author of "Personalization at Work," and a Chartered Fellow of both the CIPD and the Australian HR Institute. His mission is simple yet profound: making work better and making better work.

Throughout the episode, Baker shares practical insights on how individuals can shape their work to better align with their strengths and values, making small yet meaningful changes that boost performance, well-being, and job satisfaction. They explore concrete strategies for crafting various aspects of our jobs and discuss what managers need to know to support their teams in this process.

What is Job Crafting?

Job crafting is about personalizing and shaping how we do our work so that our jobs align better with our passions, strengths, and interests. Baker explains the concept using a simple yet effective metaphor:

“If you can imagine your job like a jacket or a dress that you buy off the peg, you often hope it’s going to be a good fit for you. You don’t know until you put it on. Job crafting is about shaping that job in small ways to make it a better fit for you as an individual.””

The key insight here is that while approximately 90% of most jobs are fixed (the "color" or "fabric" of the jacket), there are always opportunities to shape around the edges. These small adjustments can significantly impact how we experience our work.

This concept isn't just theoretical - it's backed by substantial research. Baker notes that over 170 peer-reviewed papers have explored job crafting, consistently finding positive outcomes in three core areas:

1. Performance: People who craft their jobs tend to have more energy and zest, leading to better performance as measured by self-assessments, manager evaluations, and even customer service ratings.

2. Well-being: When people feel in control of their job and can shape it, they report higher levels of well-being, satisfaction, and engagement. Job crafting can also buffer against workplace stress.

3. Development: Job crafting is strongly linked to career progression, adaptability, and satisfaction. Those who report crafting behaviors tend to experience greater career mobility and fulfillment.

The Five Dimensions of Job Crafting

Baker identifies five distinct ways people can craft their jobs:

Task Crafting

This involves adjusting the activities you do or how you structure your day. Examples include:

• Restructuring when you do certain tasks

• Taking an existing task and approaching it differently

• Using new tools or technologies to complete familiar tasks

Skill Crafting

This focuses on how you develop and apply your skills and knowledge at work. It might involve:

• Seeking opportunities to learn new skills

• Finding ways to use underutilized abilities

• Adapting your approach to leverage your strengths

Purpose (Cognitive) Crafting

This dimension is about connecting to what's meaningful and purposeful for you:

• Finding aspects of your work that align with your values

• Reframing how you think about your role's impact

• Bringing external passions into the workplace (like starting a running club)

Relationship Crafting

This involves shaping your connections with others:

• Amplifying relationships you enjoy

• Fostering connections outside your immediate team

• Adjusting how you interact with challenging colleagues (what Baker refers to as "energy black holes")

Wellbeing Crafting

This focuses on approaching work from a healthier perspective:

• Creating rituals that support mental or physical health

• Establishing boundaries to protect energy

• Developing strategies to manage workplace stressors

Baker shares the example of a physiotherapist who, finding his work stressful with back-to-back patients, decided to take "100 mindful steps" when walking from his office to reception to collect each new patient. This simple well-being intervention helped him recenter and transition mindfully between patients.

Challenges and Considerations

While job crafting offers tremendous benefits, it's not without challenges. Baker addresses several potential concerns:

Management Skepticism

Some managers worry that giving employees permission to craft their jobs will lead to chaos or people shirking core responsibilities. Baker counters this with evidence:

"The reality the research shows, and this is my practical experience, is that most job crafting is in budgets of five to ten minutes a day, or like an hour a week max. People haven't got the bandwidth, the time, or the energy to go beyond that."

People tend to be realistic about what they can change, and they understand that most of their job remains fixed.

Implementation Without Follow-Through

One guaranteed way for job crafting to have a negative effect is if organizations introduce the concept but don't allow actual implementation:

"If you give people the rhetoric about it, you might give people the training about it, and then you don't allow people to execute...people will say, 'Well, hang on, you asked me to do one thing, and actually you are acting a different way.'"

This disconnect can lead to frustration and disengagement. Baker recommends starting with pilot groups to collect success stories before rolling out job crafting more broadly.

Vulnerability in Trying New Approaches

Employees may feel vulnerable when first attempting to craft their jobs, especially in cultures where this hasn't been the norm. Baker notes that providing support and reassurance during this transition is crucial.

Practical Applications and Implications

How to Start Job Crafting

Baker offers several practical approaches for individuals looking to craft their jobs:

1. Energy Mapping Exercise: Draw a line with "gives energy" on one end and "takes energy" on the other. Plot your daily tasks along this spectrum, then consider how to amplify energizing activities and reshape draining ones.

2. Focus on One Thing: Instead of trying to change everything at once, identify one aspect of your job you'd like to improve and start there.

3. Schedule "Me Meetings": Baker notes that while we attend countless meetings for others, we rarely schedule time for ourselves. Set aside 30-60 minutes to reflect on what you'd like to change about your work.

4. Reframe Unavoidable Tasks: For tasks you dislike but can't eliminate, consider their deeper purpose and create a system to make them more palatable. Baker shares how he became "frenemies with expenses" by recognizing their importance to the business and rewarding himself with a KitKat Chunky after completion.

For Managers Supporting Job Crafting

Managers can foster an environment conducive to job crafting by:

1. Creating Space for Honest Conversations: Ask questions like "What are you enjoying about your job?" or "If you could make your job 1% better, what would you do?"

2. Listening Sincerely: Show genuine interest in employees' ideas rather than merely going through the motions.

3. Embedding Job Crafting in Performance Reviews: Some organizations have successfully integrated job crafting discussions into regular performance check-ins, focusing on different dimensions each quarter.

4. Adopting an Experimental Mindset: Encourage employees to try small changes with the understanding that not all experiments will succeed.

5. Believing in Employee Capability: At its core, supporting job crafting requires trusting that employees can thoughtfully reshape aspects of their work while still meeting core responsibilities.

Connections to Broader Themes

Soren and Baker discuss how job crafting connects to larger workplace themes, particularly autonomy and the post-pandemic shift in work arrangements. They note that job crafting shares elements with Self-Determination Theory (discussed in a previous episode with Ann Bradford [link]), especially the power of choice and autonomy in creating meaningful work.

The conversation also touches on how job crafting relates to the ongoing debate about remote versus in-office work. The backlash against companies requiring office returns after offering flexibility parallels the frustration that can occur when organizations introduce job crafting but later restrict it.

Future Directions and Ongoing Work

Looking ahead, Baker sees job crafting becoming a core skill in the changing landscape of work:

"If you think about pre-pandemic...wouldn't it be great if we could get everyone to top up their well-being and resilience skills? I think job crafting is a skill set that enables people to be able to change and agile flex in terms of how they pursue their role."

Further, as artificial intelligence and automation transform jobs, Baker suggests that job crafting capabilities will become increasingly valuable. He encourages organizations to involve employees in harnessing new technologies rather than imposing changes without consultation.

An intriguing potential application involves using AI tools like ChatGPT to support job crafting - not just for efficiency but for energy:

"Most organizations or most people want to talk about using AI in their own roles, they talk about seeking efficiency. And I'd love people to use the E word, but change it to energy...rather than doing the same things faster, can you bring more energy and lightness to what you're doing?"

Key Takeaways

1. Job crafting involves making small, intentional changes to align your work better with your strengths, values, and interests.

2. There are five dimensions of job crafting: tasks, skills, purpose, relationships, and well-being.

3. Research shows job crafting improves performance, well-being, and career development.

4. Most people craft their jobs in small increments (5-10 minutes daily or an hour weekly).

5. Managers can support job crafting by creating space for honest conversations, listening sincerely, and adopting an experimental mindset.

Job crafting offers a powerful framework for anyone looking to find greater meaning and satisfaction in their work. By making small adjustments across the five dimensions - tasks, skills, purpose, relationships, and well-being - individuals can transform their experience of work without necessarily changing jobs.

As Baker reminds us, the question we should all be asking is: "What can bring you more energy?" By focusing on energy rather than mere efficiency, job crafting provides a path toward work that is not just better performed but more deeply fulfilling.

Resources for Further Exploration

• Connect with Rob Baker on LinkedIn or Instagram

• Visit Tailored Thinking for more resources on job crafting

• Rob's book: "Personalization at Work"

• Original job crafting research from the University of Michigan

Understanding Our Multitudes: Lessons from Reb Rebele [Parts One & Two]

In this episode of Meaningful Work Matters, host Andrew Soren chats with Reb Rebele, a psychological scientist, author, teacher, and advisor. Rebele teaches MBA students in Melbourne, Australia and brings over a decade of experience researching positive psychology and organizational behavior at the University of Pennsylvania. Rebele dedicates their career to helping individuals, teams, and organizations improve well-being, enhance creativity and collaboration, and achieve their goals.

In Part One, Soren and Rebele explore the dynamic nature of personality and how understanding our different personality states can help us navigate the complexities of meaningful work. Rebele challenges common assumptions about authenticity and examines ways to intentionally adjust our personality expression to achieve our goals while maintaining sincerity in our work lives.

Breaking Down the Personality Box

As Rebele declares, "nobody really wants to be just one kind of person." Their research highlights how we all possess core personality traits that persist over time, yet contain multitudes of possible ways of being.

This insight challenges the traditional view of personality as fixed and unchangeable.

The data tells us that even the most introverted person experiences moments of high extroversion, and vice versa. These fluctuations stem not just from our situations, but from our goals and motivations in the moment.

When we want to connect with others, we act more extroverted.

When we pursue productivity or achievement, different aspects of our personality emerge.

The Authenticity Paradox

Rebele's work also challenges conventional wisdom about authenticity.

Rather than equating authenticity with behavioral consistency, Rebele’s research suggests that truly authentic people express different sides of themselves based on their goals and context.

Authenticity can become a restrictive box - one we place ourselves in and others place us in. When we demand constant authenticity while assuming someone embodies just one personality type, we limit their freedom to express their full range of experiences and interactions.

Managing Your Multiple Selves at Work

Understanding personality dynamics offers practical strategies for those seeking meaningful work. Rebele emphasizes how tasks that require us to act against our natural dispositions drain additional energy and resources.

Success lies not in avoiding these situations, but in managing them strategically.

Rebele goes on to share an example. "I exercise before teaching, think about my caffeine intake, and ensure I get enough rest. Without these preparations, I tend toward neurotic and withdrawn behavior." These are the kinds of deliberate efforts most of us practice to bring out the right versions of ourselves at the right time.

The Power of Restorative Niches

Personality psychologist Brian Little's concept of "restorative niches" plays a crucial role in managing our different personality states. Rebele recommends developing a recovery menu for various time frames:

• Two minutes: Deep breathing, window gazing, or quick movement

• Two hours: Extended breaks for deeper recovery

• Two days: Weekend restoration

• Two weeks: Complete vacation disconnection

This systematic approach to recovery helps professionals sustain their energy and authenticity while meeting their work's varying demands.

The Leadership Challenge

Middle managers face particularly high burnout rates because they must constantly switch between different work modes - from one-on-one support to strategic thinking to group facilitation. Yet organizations rarely provide tools to manage these transitions effectively.

Rebele recommends practical approaches like designating "maker days" and "manager days" to group tasks requiring different personality states.

Success depends on recognizing how different tasks demand different versions of ourselves and creating supportive conditions for those transitions.

Looking Ahead

By embracing our multiple selves and understanding the conditions that bring out different aspects of our personality, we gain greater agency in our professional lives. We can move beyond simplistic notions of authenticity toward a more nuanced understanding of how to show up as our best selves in different contexts.

Part 2 will explore collaboration's dark sides, generosity's pitfalls, and strategies for avoiding burnout while making a difference.

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In Part Two of our conversation with Reb Rebele, we explore a paradox: while collaboration and generosity are essential elements of meaningful work, they can become counterproductive when not properly managed.

Building on our previous discussion about personality dynamics, Rebele reveals how organizational practices around collaboration and helping behaviors often undermine the very outcomes they aim to achieve.

The Hidden Costs of Being the "Go-To" Person

Rebele's research with colleague Rob Cross reveals that collaborative activities in organizations have increased by over 50% in recent years. This surge represents a fundamental shift in how work gets done.

"Even before the pandemic pushed everybody onto Zoom," Rebele explains, "time spent at work in collaborative activities had ballooned by 50% or more."

The consequences of this shift are counterintuitive.

Through network analysis studies, Rebele and Cross found that employees with reputations for being effective information sources and helpful colleagues often face the highest risk of burnout and turnover. "You become known as the really helpful, smart, good information source person. It sets the seeds for your potential demise in that organization," Rebele notes. This pattern creates a paradox where organizations inadvertently drive away their most valuable collaborators.

The rise of remote work has intensified these challenges.

Rebele points to Microsoft's research on the "triple peak workday," where employees now face three distinct peaks of collaborative activity—morning, afternoon, and a new post-dinner surge. This pattern suggests that rather than creating more flexibility, hybrid work may be expanding the collaborative demands on our time.

The Generosity Burnout Trap

Parallel to the collaboration challenge, Rebele's research with teachers showed that the most selfless educators had students who achieved less than teachers who maintained healthy boundaries.

"We think about self-development often as kind of a selfish activity," Rebele observes. "We discount the fact that if I take that time now, it might make me even better at helping people later on."

This insight challenges the common assumption that more helping is always better, and instead suggests instead that sustainable impact requires balancing generosity with self-care.

Systematic Solutions for Sustainable Collaboration

Rather than treating excessive collaboration as an individual problem, Rebele advocates for systematic organizational approaches.

One example is Dropbox's innovative experiment with a "meeting reset," where the company temporarily removed all recurring meetings from calendars and established new norms around meeting participation. This intervention allowed teams to rebuild their collaborative practices more intentionally.

Rebele also recommends practical strategies for individuals:

Creating a "help network map" to understand patterns of giving and receiving assistance across your professional relationships. This exercise reveals not just who you help, but also identifies potential resources you might be underutilizing.

Developing what Brian Little calls "restorative niches"—spaces and times for recovery between collaborative demands. These can range from two-minute breaks between meetings to longer periods of focused work.

Minutes

• Deep breaths
• Look out a window
• Quick stretch

Weeks

• Full mental rest
• New environments
• Passion project

Hours

• Proper lunch break
• Walk outside
• Exercise

Days

• Engage in hobbies
• Time in nature
• Complete disconnection

2

Reimagining Collaboration for Meaningful Work

The challenge, Rebele suggests, isn't to eliminate collaboration but to make it more purposeful.

"We need to manage it well, and we need to think about how to manage it together, because our default behaviors very often lead us into a place where we get more of the worst of both worlds."

This means rethinking traditional approaches to workplace interaction.

For instance, rather than defaulting to standard hybrid work policies focused on days per week in the office, organizations might consider alternative structures like monthly or quarterly in-person collaboration periods.

The goal is to create conditions where both connection and individual work can thrive.

As Rebele notes, "Collaboration is important to the organization...It's where a lot of good ideas come from. It's also really important to employees...It's the social side of meaningful work."

Looking Forward

The insights from this conversation suggest a framework for thinking about collaboration and generosity in the context of meaningful work. Rather than maximizing these behaviors, the focus shifts to optimizing them—creating sustainable practices that enhance both individual wellbeing and organizational effectiveness.

By understanding the dynamics of collaboration and generosity, we can build work environments that support meaningful connection without leading to burnout.

Resources for further exploration

• Harvard Business Review | Collaboration Overload

• Stephen Lynch | The Triple Peak Workday

Indigenous Perspectives on Meaningful Work: Lessons from Adam Murry and Alvan Yuan

In this episode of Meaningful Work Matters, host Andrew Soren sits down with two researchers who are enhancing our understanding of meaningful work through an Indigenous lens.

Dr. Adam Murry, an associate professor of psychology at the University of Calgary with Ukrainian, Irish, and Apache heritage, and his graduate student Alvan Yuan, a Canadian of Taiwanese descent, offer an exploration of Indigenous perspectives in workplace settings.

Drawing from their extensive research in post-secondary institutions, Murray and Yuan go beyond describing workplace experiences. They provide a comprehensive analysis that challenges existing paradigms of meaningful work, offering practical insights for leaders and organizations seeking to create more inclusive, purposeful work environments.

Their study explores the complex ways Indigenous faculty and staff in post-secondary institutions define, experience, and navigate professional purpose, while also presenting actionable strategies for organizational transformation.

The Research Journey

The conversation begins with the backstory of their research, which emerged from a critical question posed by university leadership: How can we retain and support Indigenous faculty and staff?

Murry explains that this wasn't just another academic exercise, but a deeply purposeful investigation prompted by concerns about Indigenous employees being recruited away from their institutions.

The researchers interviewed 18 Indigenous faculty and staff from universities across Western Canada, focusing on understanding their experiences of meaningful work. Their approach was deliberately collaborative, rooted in Murry's long-standing commitment to research that genuinely serves Indigenous communities.

Redefining Meaningful Work

Through their interviews, Murry and Yuan uncovered an holistic understanding of meaningful work that extends far beyond traditional workplace metrics. For the Indigenous employees the spoke with, work is intrinsically linked to broader concepts of community, ancestry, and collective purpose.

Three key dimensions emerged as central to their sense of meaningful work:

1 Generational Belonging - seeing work as a continuation of ancestral labor and a service to both current and future generations. This perspective transforms work from an individual pursuit to a collective journey of community advancement.

2 Connectedness - not just to immediate colleagues, but to community, land, and cultural context. This connectedness is far more comprehensive than typical workplace understanding of team dynamics.

3 Job Design - finding meaning in work that directly aligns with Indigenous causes or personal cultural beliefs. The job itself becomes a vehicle for cultural preservation and community empowerment.

The Invisible Labor of Indigenous Professionals

Murry and Yuan don't shy away from naming the systemic challenges Indigenous employees face.

They describe what they term the "minority tax" - an invisible burden of additional unrecognized labor. Indigenous faculty and staff are simultaneously expected to represent entire Indigenous experiences while managing traditional job responsibilities, all while confronting deep-rooted colonial structures within institutions.

The researchers highlight a critical tension: organizations frequently seek to leverage Indigenous employees' community-driven values without providing adequate support, recognition, or compensation.

This dynamic often leads to burnout, frustration, and a sense of exploitation.

Pathways to Organizational Transformation

The research offers compelling recommendations for meaningful change. Murry and Yuan advocate for a radical reimagining of workplace structures that goes beyond surface-level diversity initiatives.

Key strategies include:

• Providing genuine job crafting opportunities

• Encoding community-focused work into formal job descriptions

• Creating promotion criteria that truly recognize Indigenous contributions

• Allowing Indigenous employees to define decolonization on their own terms

Decolonization as a Workplace Journey

The researchers frame meaningful work as a potential avenue for reconciliation - a space where systemic barriers can be challenged and transformed.

They draw on the powerful insight that decolonization is not just an institutional mandate, but a deeply personal process of reclaiming narrative and purpose.

Conclusion

Murry and Yuan invite us to expand our understanding of meaningful work.

They challenge us to recognize that career purpose is a deeply personal journey shaped by cultural context, historical experiences, and collective aspirations.

For organizations seeking greater diversity, equity, and inclusion, this research offers a transformative roadmap - one that honors the rich, multifaceted experiences of Indigenous professionals and reimagines workplace culture through a lens of genuine respect and mutual understanding.

Resources Mentioned

• Indigenous Organizations and Communities Research Lab at the University of Calgary

• "Decolonization is Not a Metaphor" by Tuck and Yang (2012)

• Native American Rehabilitation Association (NARA) in Portland

• Indigenous Primary Health Care and Policy Research (IPHCPR) Network of Alberta

Beyond Perfect Performance: Lessons from Sonya Looney

In this episode of Meaningful Work Matters, host Andrew Soren explores the intricate relationship between perfectionism and meaningful work with Sonya Looney, a unique voice at the intersection of elite performance and well-being. As a World Champion mountain biker with two decades of endurance racing experience, NBC-HWC-certified mental performance coach, and researcher, Looney brings both scientific rigor and lived experience to the conversation. Her unique combination of athletic achievement, coaching expertise, and interdisciplinary education allows her to offer distinctive insights into resilience, healthy striving, and the complex dynamics of perfectionism in high-performance settings.

Understanding Perfectionism in High Achievement

Looney introduces perfectionism through the multi-dimensional model developed by Flett and Hewitt, which identifies three key dimensions:

"We're perfectionistic in three ways: We have very high standards for ourselves, we have very high standards for other people, or we expect to meet other people's standards, society's standards, someone else's standards."

This framework helps explain why many high achievers struggle to find satisfaction in their accomplishments, often experiencing what Looney describes as "excessive striving, self-validation through goals, and difficulty in realizing a sense of accomplishment."

The Paradox of Performance and Purpose

One of the most striking insights from the episode is how perfectionism can actually undermine the meaningful aspects of work.

Through her personal journey as an elite athlete, Looney discovered that her most fulfilling moments weren't tied to race victories or performance metrics, but rather to the impact she had on others.

"If I win a race, I don't really care anymore. It's more how can I use this experience? How can I use my bike racing as a laboratory to help other people unlock their potential and find fulfillment in the process?"

From Personal Achievement to Social Impact

Looney's research reveals a shift in how we might approach goal-setting and achievement.

She introduces the concept of "meaningful other-ish goals," building on Adam Grant and Reb Rebele's work on "other-ish" behavior, where personal achievement becomes a vehicle for broader social impact.

Understanding Other-ish Goals

• Combine personal achievement with social contribution
• Focus on collective impact rather than individual success
• Allow for both personal growth and community benefit
• Emphasize immeasurable impacts over quantifiable metrics

The Challenge of Immeasurable Impact

A paradox emerges in Looney's work: the most meaningful accomplishments are often the ones we can't measure. As she notes:

"Maybe the immeasurability of it is actually helping perfectionists because they can't compare it to something. It's just a feeling and it's immeasurable."

This insight challenges traditional approaches to performance evaluation and success metrics, suggesting that our most significant contributions might exist beyond conventional measurement frameworks.

Practical Applications for Perfectionists

Looney offers several strategies for high achievers struggling with perfectionist tendencies:

1. Balance your ‘goal portfolio’ between personal achievement and social impact

1. Practice intentional savoring of accomplishments, especially focusing on impact on others

2. Recognize that negative emotions can coexist with meaningful achievement

3. Consider reducing measurement frequency of performance metrics

Resources for Further Exploration

• "Give and Take" by Adam Grant

• "Transcend" by Scott Barry Kaufman

• Research by Gordon Flett on perfectionism and mattering

• Work by Jennifer Crocker on contingent self-worth

• Sonya Looney's website: sonyalooney.com

• The Sonya Looney Show (soon to be rebranded as "Grow the Good")

Beyond the Billable Hour: Lessons from Anne Brafford [Parts One & Two]

In this two-part episode of Meaningful Work Matters, host Andrew Soren explores the complex intersection of meaningful work, identity, and the legal profession with Dr. Anne Brafford. A former Big Law equity partner turned well-being consultant and researcher, Brafford brings unique insights from both her personal journey and her academic research into how lawyers find - or struggle to find - meaning in their work.

Brafford is the owner of Aspire, an education and consulting firm for the legal profession, and a founder of the Institute for Well-Being in Law. Her work focuses on the intersection of inclusion, engagement, and well-being in legal workplaces, informed by both her practical experience as a former equity partner at one of the nation's largest law firms and her academic credentials - a PhD in positive organizational psychology from Claremont Graduate University and a Masters of Applied Positive Psychology (MAPP) from the University of Pennsylvania.

A Journey from Dream to Reality

Brafford's relationship with law began early - at age 11, she already knew she wanted to be a lawyer. As a first-generation college student who went on to achieve her childhood dream, becoming not just a lawyer but an equity partner at a prestigious firm, her story exemplifies both the allure and complexity of pursuing meaningful work in the legal profession.

What drew her specifically to employment law was its inherent connection to human psychology and problem-solving - themes that would later influence her transition into well-being research and consulting.

However, after achieving the pinnacle of success in Big Law, Brafford found herself grappling with questions about meaning and purpose: "After the achievement ran out… then there wasn't much left as far as meaningfulness went."

The Moral Dimension of Legal Practice

Brafford shares a powerful story about her mentor Carol, who demonstrated how lawyers could provide both legal and moral guidance to clients.

In an environment where law is often approached as amoral, Carol stood out by consistently incorporating ethical considerations alongside legal risk assessments.

Moral Leadership in Practice

• Going beyond legal risk assessment to consider ethical implications
• Acknowledging the human impact of business decisions
• Building trust through consistent demonstration of care for broader interests
• Creating space for moral reflection in client conversations

"My mentor would get involved in very tricky employment issues, like discharge issues always have a lot of moral weight to them," Brafford explains. "You're taking a person's livelihood away from them. But sometimes our clients forget that.

This approach manifested in practical ways, such as advising clients not just on legal risk but on moral implications - like the impact of terminating an employee just before their pension vested. Carol's example gave Brafford "permission and courage to develop more of that moral sensibility" in her own practice.

Identity and Gender in Legal Practice

Brafford's research illuminates patterns in how gender shapes career motivations and experiences in law. While law schools have maintained gender parity for decades with roughly 50% female enrollment, only 20-30% of law firm partners are women. This dramatic drop-off points to deeper systemic issues around how different identities experience and pursue meaningful work.

Her research reveals that women lawyers consistently cite meaningful work as a primary motivator for their careers, while men more frequently emphasize financial success and provider roles. These differences reflect broader societal patterns and expectations that shape how men and women approach their professional lives.

"When work gets hard, men can find more value in their provider role of this is hard, but I'm doing this for my family," Brafford notes. "Women who have not been socialized into that role... when it gets hard and meaningfulness is being drained, there's a bigger question of why am I doing this?"

Positive Changes in Legal Organizations

The conversation reveals encouraging developments in how law firms are evolving to create more meaningful work environments.

The COVID-19 pandemic, coupled with broader societal movements, has catalyzed significant cultural shifts. Law firms are increasingly taking public stances on important social issues and articulating clear organizational values - a dramatic departure from their traditionally neutral positioning.

Brafford highlights one particularly innovative example: a law firm's groundbreaking parental leave policy that challenges traditional hierarchies by offering expanded leave options that apply equally to all employees - not just lawyers. This approach recognizes that meaningful work environments must address both the professional and personal needs of their people.

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In part two of our conversation with Dr. Anne Brafford, she delves into Self-Determination Theory (SDT) - a framework for understanding human motivation and flourishing that has profound implications for creating meaningful work environments.

Understanding Self-Determination Theory

At its core, Self-Determination Theory proposes that people share three basic psychological needs essential for optimal functioning and motivation: relatedness, competence, and autonomy.

As Brafford explains:

"We either need to figure out how to satisfy these needs ourselves, or even more so, our context needs to help support those needs."

Relatedness encompasses both close interpersonal relationships and a sense of belonging within significant groups or communities.

Competence reflects the need to feel effective and see that actions impact the environment.

The third need, autonomy, is often misunderstood. "Under self determination theory, autonomy isn't about independence," Brafford clarifies. "It's more about volition and authenticity - do I feel like I'm doing this because I'm being compelled, or do I feel that I am self-authoring, doing it because I am choosing to and because it aligns with my values and identities?"

The Quality of Motivation

Beyond identifying these core needs, SDT revolutionized our understanding of motivation by moving away from simple "on/off" models. Instead, motivation exists on a continuum of quality, ranging from amotivation (complete lack of motivation) through various forms of external motivation to fully autonomous motivation.

"What the theory proposes is that when our needs are satisfied in our context, we are more likely to be autonomously motivated in that context," Brafford explains.

This quality spectrum includes:

• Amotivation: No motivation or connection to the task at hand

• External motivation: Acting due to force or external rewards

• Introjected motivation: Partially internalized but driven by guilt or ego

• Identified motivation: Actions aligned with personal values

• Integrated motivation: Full alignment across all aspects of identity

• Intrinsic motivation: Acting from pure enjoyment or interest

Creating Conditions for Meaningful Work

The research shows remarkable connections between autonomous motivation and meaningful work. "What the research has found is that autonomous motivation is really strongly related to meaningful work - like 0.83 in one study," notes Brafford. "You're just not going to get meaningfulness at work unless you have autonomous motivation."

This insight has profound implications for leadership. Rather than relying on command-and-control, effective leaders focus on understanding what matters to their people and helping create conditions where they can connect their work to their values.

Supporting Psychological Needs in Practice

For organizations and leaders looking to foster meaningful work environments, Brafford emphasizes several key practices:

1. Get to know people as individuals - understand their values, interests, and priorities

2. Help frame the significance of work in ways that connect to what matters to them

3. Structure work to support feelings of competence and growth

4. Create opportunities for high-quality relationships and belonging

5. Allow appropriate autonomy in how work gets done

Individual Agency in Need Satisfaction

While organizational support is crucial, Brafford also highlights the importance of individual "needs crafting" - proactively shaping our work to better meet psychological needs. This requires self-awareness and mindfulness about values and needs, along with the psychological flexibility to pursue them effectively in the moment.

Looking Ahead

The implications of Self-Determination Theory extend far beyond individual workplace satisfaction.

When organizations create environments that support basic psychological needs, they see improvements in engagement, wellbeing, performance, and retention. This science-based approach offers practical pathways to make work more meaningful for everyone involved.

Resources for Further Exploration

• "Positive Professionals" by Anne Brafford

• Need-Satisfying Work Experiences Activity Guide

• Institute for Well-Being in Law - Resources and tools for implementing wellbeing practices in legal organizations

• Aspire Legal - Educational resources and consulting services focused on workplace thriving, inclusion, and engagement

Harmonizing Culture and Purpose: Lessons from Gitima Sharma

In this episode, Dr. Gitima Sharma, Associate Professor of Counseling at California State University, Fresno, and Founder of CoachInspire, shares her remarkable journey from navigating family mental health challenges in India to becoming a leading purpose researcher and coach in the United States.

Drawing from both Eastern philosophy and Western psychology, Sharma offers a unique perspective on how purpose and meaning shape our work and lives.

With over 30 published research articles and a deep commitment to mentoring students from underrepresented backgrounds, she brings a cross-cultural lens to the transformative power of purpose. Her approach blends Buddhist principles of human revolution with evidence-based practices in positive psychology, creating a holistic framework for personal and systemic change.

The Buddhist Roots of Purpose

At the heart of Sharma's perspective lies the Buddhist concept of Human Revolution - the idea that lasting positive change requires inner transformation of hearts and minds.

As she explains:

"Presently, we are facing, as humanity, unprecedented struggles that include war in our global family, violence, hate crimes, division... However, even if these struggles are unprecedented, they are not unique in any way, because as humanity, we have continued to undergo these cycles... The reality is that until people's hearts and minds do not change in the direction of good, nothing substantial can be achieved."

Unlike mainstream Western mindsets that often focus purpose towards individual fulfillment, this foundation informs Sharma’s definition of purpose as something that transcends individual satisfaction, requiring both personal growth and contribution to collective wellbeing.

The Five Phases of Purpose Development

Sharma shares her research-informed model for cultivating purpose that includes five interconnected phases:

1. Explore: Examining who we are in the context of our strengths, passions, family history, and cultural identity

2. Engage: Taking action with causes we care about and challenging ourselves through concrete goals

3. Reflect: Creating dedicated time and space to process our experiences and their meaning

4. Articulate: Finding ways to express and share our purpose with others

5. Actualize: Setting specific goals and accessing resources needed to fulfill our purpose

"It's like when you're climbing the mountain," she explains, "the higher you go, the view becomes clearer... We are not always aware of the underlying meaning and purpose when we are amidst the struggles. But if we get the right support, we tap into right strengths, and we overcome that one struggle, the view or the meaning and purpose becomes clearer and clearer."

Cultural Context and Identity in Purpose Development

Much of Sharma's research has focused on first-generation and minority students, revealing how cultural context shapes the experience and expression of purpose.

Her studies found that many students:

• Frame their purpose in terms of gratitude and repaying their parents' sacrifices

• Seek to create pathways for others from similar backgrounds

• Need support around believing in their own potential before they can fully explore purpose

• Value mentorship and community encouragement in their purpose journey

Practical Applications for Leaders and Organizations

For educators, managers, and others seeking to foster purpose in their organizations, Sharma emphasizes two key approaches:

Lead with Humanity:

"If we don't have the humanity to believe in other people's potential and really believe in the fact that the student, client, employee whom I'm serving is this unique person with their own unique life's journey... then we won't even make a genuine effort to help them to reflect upon their purpose."

Create Authentic Spaces:

Focus on "creating spaces where people can authentically share about themselves, bring their whole selves into work, their intersectional identities, and then reflect upon the value they bring to our work or our educational environments and just society and our world's future at large."

Conclusion

By weaving together Eastern wisdom, rigorous research, and practical application, Sharma offers a unique and valuable perspective on how we can cultivate purpose in ways that honor both individual wellbeing and collective flourishing.

Her work reminds us that meaningful work isn't just about personal satisfaction - it's about contributing to a larger vision of positive change while staying true to our authentic selves and cultural roots.

Resources for Further Exploration

• "Thriving Beyond Stress" - Evidence-based strategies for transforming stress into joy and fulfillment

• Access Sharma's academic publications via her Google Scholar profile

• Learn more about the principles that inform her work at buddhability.org

• Schedule a consultation through CoachInspire

• Connect with Sharma on LinkedIn

Tiny Moments Matter: Lessons from Zach Mercurio

In this episode of Meaningful Work Matters, host Andrew sits down with Zach Mercurio, a researcher and expert in the psychology of mattering at work. As a Research and Teaching Fellow in Colorado State University's Department of Psychology's Center for Meaning and Purpose, Mercurio brings both academic rigor and practical wisdom to the conversation, drawn from his extensive work with organizations worldwide.

What makes Mercurio's work particularly valuable is his unique position as a "pracademic" – someone who bridges the gap between research and real-world application.

His insights come not just from theoretical understanding, but from hands-on experience helping organizations like American Express, the U.S. Army, and Delta Airlines create cultures where people feel truly significant.

The Mattering Instinct: A Survival Need

At the heart of Mercurio's research is a profound truth about human nature: mattering is an instinct as basic as survival itself. He shares a touching personal story about the moment his first son was born, watching as the newborn reached up and grasped his finger with surprising strength. Scientists call this the grasp reflex, one of several innate behaviors that newborns exhibit from their first moments of life. As Mercurio explains,

"The first thing we do as human beings is search to matter to someone enough to keep us alive... You would not be listening to this podcast if at some point in your life you did not procure mattering to another person enough to keep you alive."

This primitive survival instinct evolves throughout our lives into a sophisticated psychological need. We develop an ongoing desire to be cared for, seen, and heard by others. We seek validation that we are valued members of our communities and that our presence makes a difference. This evolution from basic survival instinct to complex psychological need helps explain why feeling significant becomes so crucial in our work lives – it's woven into the very fabric of our human experience.

Understanding Mattering in Practice

Mercurio's research reveals three essential components that leaders must address to create a culture of mattering:

1. Feeling Noticed

Being noticed goes beyond simple recognition. As Mercurio explains, "I can know you, but not notice that you're suffering." True noticing requires deliberate attention to the ebbs and flows of people's lives and responding with meaningful action.

One leader Mercurio studied kept a simple notebook where she wrote down personal details about team members' lives each Friday, reviewing it Monday morning to check in on specific concerns or life events. This practice led to exceptional team engagement and loyalty.

2. Feeling Affirmed

Mercurio distinguishes between three important concepts:

• Appreciation: Showing gratitude for who someone is

• Recognition: Acknowledging what someone does

• Affirmation: Showing specific evidence of someone's unique significance

3. Feeling Needed

When people feel replaceable, they tend to act replaceable. Mercurio shares that some of the most powerful words a leader can say are: "If it wasn't for you, this wouldn't be possible."

The Dark Side: Anti-Mattering

While much attention is paid to the positive effects of mattering, Mercurio also explores its shadow side through the concept of "anti-mattering" – the experience of feeling invisible or insignificant. This phenomenon, studied by researcher Gordon Flett at York University, carries as powerful a charge as mattering itself, but in the opposite direction. Like antimatter in physics, which possesses an inverse powerful charge to matter, the experience of anti-mattering can have profound negative effects on individuals and organizations.

When people don't feel they matter, their responses typically manifest in one of two ways. Some individuals retreat into withdrawal, choosing to isolate themselves, withhold their contributions, or ultimately leave their organizations entirely. This withdrawal can be seen as a form of self-protection – if one's contributions aren't valued, why continue to offer them?

Others respond to anti-mattering through what Mercurio calls "acts of desperation." These individuals might engage in complaining, blaming, or gossiping – behaviors that Mercurio suggests are often misinterpreted as personality problems rather than symptoms of a deeper organizational issue. He points to research showing that workplace gossip, for instance, is frequently predicted by psychological contract violations, such as lack of fair treatment or respect from supervisors.

"If I don't matter to someone else," Mercurio explains, "I'm going to find somebody who will listen to me."

This understanding of anti-mattering challenges leaders to look beyond surface-level behavioral issues. Instead of asking "What's wrong with this person?" Mercurio encourages leaders to ask, "What's wrong with the environment?" Often, he notes, the employees labeled as "difficult" are actually the ones feeling most unseen and undervalued in the organization.

Creating a Culture of Mattering

Mercurio emphasizes that mattering isn't just about individual leadership behaviors – it's a systems issue that requires organizational commitment.

He shares the success story of American Express Global Business Travel, which saw a 50% reduction in attrition over eight months after implementing a comprehensive mattering initiative.

Key organizational strategies include:

Making Mattering Behaviors Possible

• Creating time and space for human connection
• Removing barriers to meaningful interaction
• Building systems that support relationship-building

Making Mattering Behaviors Inevitable

• Training leaders in specific mattering practices
• Measuring and evaluating mattering behaviors
• Creating accountability for fostering significance

Making Mattering Behaviors Possible

• Creating time and space for human connection

• Removing barriers to meaningful interaction

• Building systems that support relationship-building

Making Mattering Behaviors Inevitable

• Training leaders in specific mattering practices

• Measuring and evaluating mattering behaviors

• Creating accountability for fostering significance

Practical Applications for Leaders

Mercurio offers several concrete practices leaders can implement immediately:

• Practice Intentional Noticing

  • Keep notes about team members' personal situations

  • Follow up on previous conversations

  • Pay attention to changes in behavior or engagement

• Provide Specific Affirmation

  • Move beyond generic praise

  • Connect individual actions to meaningful impact

  • Highlight unique contributions

• Demonstrate Essential Value

  • Clearly communicate how each person is relied upon

  • Share specific examples of indispensable contributions

  • Use language that reinforces necessity: "Because of you..."

Connections to Broader Social Movements

Mercurio draws fascinating parallels between the concept of mattering and recent workplace phenomena. He notes that both the Great Resignation and Quiet Quitting can be understood through the lens of mattering - or more precisely, its absence.

In August 2023, more workers went on strike than at any point in the 21st century, which Mercurio sees as "mattering in disguise" - a collective expression of feeling unseen and undervalued.

These movements reflect what Mercurio calls "the language of the unheard," reminding us of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s observation that "protest is the language of the unheard." This perspective helps reframe workplace challenges not as individual behavioral issues, but as systemic responses to environments where people don't feel significant.

Future Directions: The Evolution of Mattering

Looking ahead, Mercurio sees mattering becoming increasingly crucial as workplace choice expands.

His upcoming book, "The Power of Mattering: How Leaders Can Create a Culture of Significance" (May 2025), promises to provide a comprehensive framework for building organizations where everyone feels significant.

The book will explore how leaders can scale mattering practices across entire organizations, making them part of the cultural DNA rather than isolated initiatives.

Key Takeaways

1. Mattering is not just a psychological need but a survival instinct that evolves throughout our lives

2. Anti-mattering manifests in predictable ways - either through withdrawal or desperate attempts to be seen

3. Creating cultures of mattering requires systematic approaches, not just individual leadership behaviors

4. Simple practices like intentional noticing and specific affirmation can have profound impacts on people's sense of significance

Final Thoughts

In a world where 30% of workers feel invisible and 65% feel under-appreciated, Mercurio's research offers hope and practical direction. By understanding mattering as a fundamental human need and implementing systematic approaches to foster it, leaders can create environments where people thrive, contribute meaningfully, and feel truly significant.

As Mercurio powerfully concludes:

"It's very difficult for anything to matter to someone who doesn't first believe that they matter."

Resources for Further Exploration

• Visit Zach Mercurio's website for articles and insights on mattering

• Pre-order "The Power of Mattering" (releasing May 2025)

• Follow Zach on LinkedIn

• Explore the Center for Meaning and Purpose at Colorado State University

Work Devotion, Identity Armor, and The Myth of Agency: Lessons from Carrie Oelberger

When we think about meaningful work, we often focus on its benefits - greater engagement, improved performance, and enhanced well-being. But what happens when work becomes too meaningful?

In this episode of Meaningful Work Matters, Andrew speaks with Carrie Oelberger, Associate Professor at the University of Minnesota's Humphrey School of Public Affairs and McKnight Land Grant Professor, about the complexities and potential pitfalls of deeply meaningful work.

After spending a decade working in grassroots education development in Tanzania, Dr. Oelberger earned her PhD in Organization Studies from Stanford University. Now, she bridges theory and practice by consulting with philanthropic foundations and prosocial organizations while conducting groundbreaking research on meaningful work.

Understanding the Paths to Meaningful Work

Oelberger begins by introducing two distinct paths through which work becomes meaningful: self-actualization and self-transcendence.

Self-actualization focuses on personal growth and development, while self-transcendence involves contributing to something larger than ourselves.

"Ever since I was a teenager, I was interested in trying to leave the world a slightly better place than I found it, even in small, little, micro ways."

While both paths can lead to meaningful work, Oelberger's research suggests that when both are present, work can become particularly meaningful – and potentially problematic.

The Myth of "One Size Fits All"

A key insight from Oelberger's research is that there's no universal formula for meaningful work.

Her studies have identified several key factors that influence how individuals experience meaning:

• Intrinsic factors (learning, personal growth)

• Extrinsic factors (rewards, benefits)

• Relational factors (working with others)

• Pro-social factors (impact on others)

Surprisingly, even in nonprofit and social impact sectors, pro-social motivations often rank third or fourth in importance, after intrinsic and extrinsic factors.

This challenges the common assumption that everyone in these sectors is primarily motivated by altruism.

The Dark Side: Boundary Inhibition

Perhaps the most striking finding from Oelberger's research is the concept of "boundary inhibition" – where meaningful work can actually erode personal relationships and well-being.

This manifests in three key ways:

Time-based conflict:

When individuals voluntarily spend excessive time at work, leaving less time for personal relationships and activities.

Trust-based conflict:

When work devotion leads to unreliability in personal commitments.

Connection-based conflict:

When emotional investment in work creates disconnection in personal relationships.

Interestingly, these conflicts are often less problematic when both partners in a relationship share similar levels of work devotion – what Oelberger terms "occupational value homophily".

The Identity Armor Effect

Oelberger's latest research reveals another fascinating phenomenon: how meaningful work can become a form of "identity armor," particularly among single individuals in demanding fields like international aid.

When work becomes central to one's identity, the prospect of scaling back – even to pursue desired personal goals like finding a partner – can trigger an existential crisis.

Intersectional Impact: When Identity Shapes Experience

Oelberger's research reveals that the challenges of meaningful work are not experienced uniformly across different identities and contexts.

This is particularly evident in international aid work, where personal and professional trade-offs can vary significantly based on gender, sexual orientation, and cultural context.

"Women were five times more likely to be single than men... and it was really uncommon for queer folks to be partnered and doing this work."

The stark trade-offs between meaningful work and personal relationships are especially pronounced for certain groups:

Women often face greater challenges finding partners willing to take supporting roles in their careers.

LGBTQ+ individuals navigate additional complexities in locations where being out is unsafe.

Women tend to make career alterations approximately 15 years younger than men, with significant implications for long-term career trajectory.

These findings highlight how structural inequalities intersect with meaningful work, making decisions about career and personal life particularly challenging for marginalized groups.

As Oelberger notes, even the emotional experience of decision-making becomes more stressful for these individuals, as they must constantly weigh competing personal and professional priorities against additional cultural and safety considerations.

Practical Applications and Implications

For organizational leaders, especially in nonprofit and social impact sectors, Oelberger's research suggests several important considerations:

• Recognize that employee motivations are diverse and dynamic

• Model healthy work boundaries

• Challenge the "martyr complex" that can develop in mission-driven work

Looking Forward…

The conversation with Dr. Oelberger reminds us that while meaningful work is valuable, it shouldn't come at the expense of personal well-being and relationships.

As she notes, "It shouldn't have to be a choice."

Organizations and individuals must work together to create sustainable approaches to meaningful work that honor both professional purpose and personal flourishing.

---

In part one of our conversation with Dr. Carrie Oelberger (above), we explored how meaningful work can become a double-edged sword, particularly when work devotion becomes "identity armor."

In part two, we dive deeper into another critical paradox: the myth of agency in meaningful work, and how it affects both workers and organizations.

Understanding the Myth of Agency

Oelberger introduces a powerful concept that challenges common assumptions about meaningful work: the myth of agency, which she defines as "the false cultural idea that an individual can fully overcome structural and institutional barriers through strategic individual behaviors."

This myth is particularly prevalent in caring professions and social impact work, where individuals often enter with high hopes of creating significant change, only to encounter systemic barriers that individual effort alone cannot overcome.

Three Approaches to Frontline Work

Through her research, Oelberger has identified three distinct approaches that workers take when facing structural challenges:

	State Agents ("The Processors")	Citizen Agents ("The Fixers")	Human Accompaniment ("The Companions")
How They See Themselves	As bureaucrats	As advocates for clients	As partners with shared limits
How They Work with Clients	Often blame clients for lack of progress	Strongly push for clients' needs	Build meaningful, compassionate relationships
Longevity and Experience	Stay despite feeling burnt out or apathetic	Often leave quickly to make bigger changes	Stay long-term without burning out

The Power of Human Accompaniment

Perhaps the most inspiring finding from Oelberger's research is the effectiveness of the human accompaniment approach. As she explains:

"These people don't burn out, they don't leave... When you ask these people how they feel about their work, they're like, 'I feel great about my work. I feel so lucky to be doing this. I'm so inspired by my clients.'"

Rethinking Selection and Training

Oelberger challenges traditional hiring practices, particularly the emphasis on formal education for roles where lived experience and emotional intelligence might be more valuable. She advocates for:

• Identifying actual skills needed for positions

• Looking beyond formal qualifications

• Recognizing the value of lived experience

• Being open to alternative forms of expertise

"I say this as somebody with a PhD who teaches masters and PhD students," Oelberger notes. "Sometimes we require qualifications for positions that not only don't require those qualifications, but in some ways, they can make you worse at doing your job."

Building Systemic Support for Meaningful Work

The conversation culminates in a discussion of how different countries approach work support systems. Oelberger shares an illuminating example of a European aid worker who received a year of parental leave with a replacement hire - a stark contrast to American expectations.

This points to a broader need for policy-level changes that can support meaningful work, including:

• Universal healthcare access

• Comprehensive parental leave policies

• Education debt relief

• Workplace protection policies

• Social welfare benefits

As Oelberger puts it: "If society can build the boat, then we have more time to play with the sail."

Looking Forward…

This conversation with Dr. Oelberger highlights the need for a more nuanced understanding of meaningful work - one that acknowledges both individual agency and structural constraints. It suggests that creating truly sustainable meaningful work requires action at multiple levels:

• Societal: Policy changes that provide basic security and support

• Organizational: Rethinking hiring practices and work structure

• Individual: Embracing approaches like human accompaniment that recognize both limitations and possibilities

The path forward isn't about trying harder within broken systems, but rather about reimagining how we support and structure meaningful work at every level.

Recommended Reading

• Dr. Carrie Oleberger’s published work - link

• Maslach, C., & Leiter, M. P. (2016). Understanding the burnout experience: recent research and its implications for psychiatry. World psychiatry : official journal of the World Psychiatric Association (WPA), 15(2), 103–111. https://doi.org/10.1002/wps.20311

Redefining Purpose as Everyday Direction: Lessons from Patrick Hill

In this episode of Meaningful Work Matters, host Andrew Soren sits down with Patrick Hill, a professor of psychological and brain sciences at Washington University in St. Louis. Hill's research focuses on purpose and identity development, and he offers a fresh perspectives on what it means to live a purposeful life.

Hill received his PhD from the University of Notre Dame and his BA from Indiana University. His research program examines how to cultivate a life direction and how purpose promotes adaptive lifespan development.

Hill's work challenges traditional notions of purpose; presenting it not as a lofty, unattainable goal, but as something adaptable, accessible, and actionable in our everyday lives. His insights shed light on the role of purpose in well-being, personal growth, and even physical health, often in unexpected ways.

Redefining Purpose

To start, Hill introduces a nuanced understanding of purpose, breaking it down into three key elements:

1. Self-defining: Purpose should be personally attached and definitive.

2. Engaging and energizing: It should lead to greater life engagement and personal agency.

3. Future-oriented: Purpose provides direction and intentionality.

Hill emphasizes the importance of distinguishing between "big P" Purpose - often seen as world-changing and potentially anxiety-inducing - and "small p" purpose, which focuses on everyday actions that provide direction and lead to positive outcomes. This shift in perspective makes purpose more accessible and actionable for individuals in their daily lives.

"Purpose is this self-defining, self-informative life aim that gives you a direction towards engagement in life from one day to the next, one year to the next throughout the lifespan."

The Three A's of Purpose

Hill introduces the concept of purpose being adaptable, accessible, and actionable:

• Adaptable: Purpose should evolve with an individual's life circumstances.

• Accessible: It should be attainable for everyone, not just a privileged few.

• Actionable: Purpose should guide daily decisions and behaviors.

This framework helps demystify purpose and makes it more approachable for individuals who might feel overwhelmed by traditional, lofty notions of purpose.

Challenges and Considerations

One significant challenge Hill addresses is "purpose anxiety" - the stress and pressure individuals feel when asked to define their life's purpose. This anxiety can be particularly prevalent in workplace settings where employees are asked to align with organizational purpose statements.

Hill suggests that instead of focusing on grand, overarching purposes, individuals and organizations should concentrate on identifying smaller, more immediate sources of meaning and direction. This approach can help alleviate anxiety and make purpose more accessible to everyone.

Hill's Model: Sense of Purpose

Dr. Hill's research emphasizes the importance of fostering a "sense of purpose" rather than identifying a single, grand purpose. This model focuses on:

1. Feeling a sense of direction

2. Having goals that provide personal definition

3. Engaging in activities that energize and feel meaningful

This approach has been linked to various positive outcomes, including reduced risk of cognitive impairment, lower mortality rates, and improved well-being.

Practical Applications and Implications

For individuals:

1. Reflect on daily activities that provide a sense of direction and energy

2. Engage in dialogue about purpose with peers and colleagues

3. Focus on building a sense of purpose rather than defining a single, grand purpose

For organizations:

1. Foster environments where employees can discuss and explore purpose

2. Break down organizational purpose into specific, actionable activities

3. Allow for individual interpretation and alignment with organizational purpose

Hill emphasizes the importance of dialogue in exploring purpose:

"The most important thing for the purpose anxiety is having the scaffolding and the social connections along the way to help you explore."

Conclusion

Patrick Hill's research offers a refreshing and practical approach to understanding purpose in our lives and work. By reframing purpose as something adaptable, accessible, and actionable, Hill provides a pathway for individuals and organizations to cultivate meaningful engagement without the anxiety often associated with grand purpose statements.

As we navigate the complexities of modern work life, this nuanced understanding of purpose can help foster environments where individuals can thrive, find direction, and contribute meaningfully - not just to their organizations but to their own sense of fulfillment and well-being.

Resources for Further Exploration

• PATH Lab website at Washington University: [https://www.pathlabwustl.com/]

• Dr. Hill's research publications: [https://psych.wustl.edu/people/patrick-hill]

Purpose as an Active Commitment: Lessons from William Damon

In this episode of Meaningful Work Matters, host Andrew Soren engages with William Damon, Professor of Education at Stanford University and Senior Fellow at the Hoover Institution.

As one of the world's leading researchers in human development and a pioneer in the study of how people find purpose, Damon brings decades of insight to the discussion of meaningful work and purpose-driven lives.

The Triple Helix of Good Work

William Damon introduces the concept of the "triple helix" of good work, which emerged from his collaborative research with Howard Gardner and Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi. This model posits that truly meaningful and impactful work requires the integration of three essential elements:

1. Excellence: A commitment to high-quality performance and continuous improvement

2. Engagement: Genuine interest and enjoyment in one's work

3. Ethics: Adherence to moral principles and values in professional conduct

Credit: https://pz.harvard.edu/resources/howard-gardner-on-good-work-for-lawyers

Damon emphasizes that all three components are necessary for work to be truly "good." He explains:

"Two out of the three weren't enough. You have to be dedicated to ethics, a commitment to excellence, and a commitment to being engaged, to enjoying what you're doing."

This holistic approach to work aligns closely with eudaimonic well-being, reflecting Aristotelian ideals of living a life of virtue, engagement, and the pursuit of one's full potential.

Purpose as an Active Commitment

Central to Damon's research is his definition of purpose, which he articulates as "an active commitment to accomplish something that is both meaningful to the self and of consequence to the world beyond the self."

This definition encompasses several crucial elements:

• Active commitment: Purpose requires sustained effort and action, not just thought or belief

• Accomplishment: There must be a goal or outcome to work towards

• Personal meaning: The pursuit must resonate with the individual's values and interests

• Beyond the self: The impact of one's efforts should extend to the broader world or community

Damon clarifies that purpose doesn't necessarily equate to altruism, stating, "You can attempt to accomplish something for the world beyond the self that doesn't have to do with satisfying other people."

He provides examples of scientists studying black holes or artists creating unconventional music, emphasizing that purpose can be found in various forms of contribution to knowledge, art, or society.

Challenges and Considerations

While purpose and meaningful work offer numerous benefits, Damon acknowledges potential challenges:

1. The dark side of meaningful work: Highly purposeful individuals may be at risk of exploitation or burnout, especially in fields like healthcare or non-profit work.

2. Balancing merit and equality: Damon addresses recent critiques of meritocracy, arguing that the pursuit of excellence and recognition of merit are essential for societal progress and individual fulfillment.

3. Generational shifts: While cautious about overgeneralizing cohort differences (eg Gen X vs Gen Y), Damon notes that there are changing attitudes towards work-life balance and the questioning of traditional work ethics among younger generations.

Damon's Model of Purpose Development

Drawing from his extensive research, Damon presents a model of how purpose develops over the lifespan:

1. Gradual development: Purpose often emerges slowly, with fits and starts, particularly in late adolescence and early adulthood.

2. Trial and error: Many individuals experience setbacks and periods of cynicism before finding their purpose.

3. Adaptability: As life circumstances change, individuals may need to adjust their purpose or find new sources of meaning.

4. Encore purposes: In later life stages, such as retirement, people often discover new purposes aligned with their evolving capacities and interests.

This model emphasizes the dynamic nature of purpose and the importance of remaining open to new sources of meaning throughout life.

Practical Applications and Implications

Damon offers several strategies for cultivating purpose, particularly for younger individuals:

1. Fostering gratitude: Encouraging appreciation for learning opportunities and life experiences can set the stage for purpose development.

2. Developing a sense of service: Instilling the idea that "it's not all about you" helps individuals connect their efforts to broader societal needs.

3. Balancing multiple life domains: Recognizing that purpose can be found in various areas, including work, family, civic engagement, and personal interests.

For organizations, Damon stresses the importance of authentic leadership in creating purposeful work environments:

• Clearly articulating the organization's mission and its value to society

• Aligning incentives with both organizational success and societal benefit

• Fostering a culture of integrity and ethical behavior

Conclusion

William Damon's insights offer a rich perspective on the development and cultivation of purpose throughout life. By understanding purpose as an active commitment that extends beyond the self, individuals and organizations can work towards creating more meaningful, impactful, and fulfilling work experiences.

As we navigate the complexities of modern work life, Damon's research provides valuable guidance for fostering purpose-driven lives and careers.

Resources for Further Exploration

• Damon, W. (2008). The Path to Purpose: How Young People Find Their Calling in Life

• Damon, W., Menon, J., & Bronk, K. C. (2003). The development of purpose during adolescence

• Gardner, H., Csikszentmihalyi, M., & Damon, W. (2001). Good Work: When Excellence and Ethics Meet

• Damon, W. (2021). A Round of Golf with My Father: The New Psychology of Exploring Your Past to Make Peace with Your Present

• Learn more about The Good Project here!

The Stress-Meaning Paradox: Lessons from Jess Annison

In this episode of Meaningful Work Matters, host Andrew Soren engages with Jess Annison, a UK-based positive psychology practitioner, leadership coach, and career consultant. Annison, who recently completed her master's thesis in applied positive psychology, shares her research on the intricate relationship between stress and meaningful work.

With a background in organizational change and major projects, including work on the London 2012 Olympic Games and as director of change for Europe's largest open-access university, Annison brings a wealth of practical experience to her academic pursuits. Her passion for helping people find meaning in their work, coupled with her firsthand experience of the stresses that can accompany deeply meaningful roles, led her to explore this complex topic.

The Complex Relationship Between Stress and Meaningful Work

Annison's research, published in Frontiers in Psychology, reveals a nuanced and bidirectional relationship between stress and meaningful work. Using a grounded theory approach, she identified six "complex handshakes" or ways in which stress and meaningfulness interact:

These relationships highlight the intricate nature of meaningful work, which Annison describes as having "intricate tensional knots." She emphasizes that "nothing in life is so simple that it's ever wholly great," underscoring the importance of acknowledging both the benefits and potential drawbacks of meaningful work.

Stress as a Component of Work Experience

Annison frames stress within the context of the job demands-resources theory, where stress arises when job demands exceed an individual's resources to cope. She explains that while some stress can be beneficial, chronic or acute stress can lead to various mental and physical health problems.

"Stress is when we experience challenging circumstances or demands that exceed our resources, that exceed our ability to cope.”

This definition helps listeners understand that stress is subjective and can vary based on individual perceptions and available resources.

Challenges and Considerations

The research highlights several challenges associated with meaningful work:

• Potential for overwork and burnout due to deep care for the work

• Difficulty maintaining work-life balance

• Risk of exploitation when passion is used to justify poor working conditions

• Stress potentially diminishing the perceived meaningfulness of work

Annison cautions against viewing meaningful work as a "silver bullet" for workplace well-being and emphasizes the need for awareness of these potential downsides.

Annison's Research Findings

Annison's qualitative study revealed that the relationship between stress and meaningful work is often simultaneous and complex. Participants reported experiencing both positive and negative effects concurrently. For example, meaningful work might exacerbate stress while also helping to alleviate it at the same time.

One participant aptly summarized this complexity: "A few things in life are easy and worth doing," which became the title of Annison's research paper. This phrase encapsulates the idea that worthwhile endeavors often come with challenges.

Practical Applications and Implications

To navigate the complex relationship between stress and meaningful work, Annison suggests:

For individuals:

• Reflect on personal experiences of stress and meaning in work

• Journal or discuss with a mentor to gain clarity

• Make adjustments to reduce stressors or boost coping resources

• Ensure meaningful work is part of a broader meaningful life

For organizations and leaders:

• Be mindful of unintended consequences of promoting meaningful work

• Provide space for discussions about stress and meaning

• Balance high-pressure periods with time for recovery

• Role model good practices in managing work-life boundaries

Conclusion

Jess Annison's research provides valuable insights into the nuanced relationship between stress and meaningful work.

By acknowledging both the benefits and challenges of deeply engaging work, individuals and organizations can better navigate the complexities of creating fulfilling career experiences while maintaining well-being.

Resources for Further Exploration

• Jess Annison's website: www.jess-annison.com

• Research paper: "Few Things in Life Are Easy and Worth Doing: A Grounded Theory Study of the Relationship Between Stress and Meaningful Work" (available through Frontiers in Psychology)

• Upcoming book: "Career Crafting: How to Conquer Your Mid-Career Crisis and Create Your Most Meaningful Work Life" (release date: early 2025)

Unlearning Silence: Lessons from Elaine Lin Hering

In this episode of Meaningful Work Matters, host Andrew Soren speaks with Elaine Lin Hering, author of the new book "Unlearning Silence: How to Speak Your Mind, Unleash Talent, and Live More Fully."

Elaine, a recovering attorney turned accidental author, has dedicated her career to improving how we communicate with each other. Her work focuses on helping people show up authentically in the workplace and in life.

Unlearning Silence

Lin Hering introduces the concept of "unlearning silence" as a crucial step in creating more authentic and effective workplace communication. She defines silence in this context as feeling that there isn't enough room for one's ideas, insights, needs, goals, hopes, and concerns in a relational system, whether at work or in personal relationships.

Lin Hering explains:

"Silence is when you feel like you're not going to be well received, and so the outcome that makes more sense is to keep your mouth shut."

This silence can manifest in various ways, such as the "meeting after the meeting" phenomenon or the need for employees to censor or edit themselves.

The process of unlearning silence involves:

1. Awareness of one's assumptions about voice and silence

2. Interrogating these assumptions

3. Experimenting with new behaviors

4. Building a supportive team

The Complexity of Authenticity at Work

Lin Hering delves into the nuanced topic of authenticity in the workplace, particularly for individuals with subordinated identities. She highlights the challenges of bringing one's authentic self to work when facing an uphill battle against dominant cultural norms.

"Every organization, every team has a dominant culture," Lin Hering explains. "And it is driven by the people who carry that identity... If you carry the subordinated identity, meaning not the dominant, you are inherently pushing uphill."

This concept raises important questions about how organizations can create environments where diverse voices are truly valued and heard.

Challenges and Considerations

Lin Hering acknowledges that there can be real costs to speaking up in the workplace. She emphasizes the importance of agency in deciding when to speak and when to remain silent. The challenge lies in distinguishing between silence that is strategic and empowering versus silence that is oppressive and disempowering.

"The difference between silence that is additive or strategic and the silence that is oppressive is agency," Lin Hering notes. This nuanced understanding of silence challenges the simplistic "speak up" culture often promoted in workplaces.

Awareness and Action

Lin Hering presents a two-part framework for unlearning silence:

Awareness: Recognizing our assumptions about voice, silence, and who gets to speak in various contexts.

Action: Interrogating these assumptions, experimenting with new behaviors, and building a supportive network.

This framework emphasizes the importance of self-reflection and intentional behavior change in creating more inclusive and authentic communication environments.

Practical Applications and Implications

For individuals:

• Regularly ask yourself, "What do I think?" and "What do I need?" to reconnect with your authentic voice.

• Start with small experiments to practice using your voice in low-stakes situations.

• Build a supportive team around you, including mentors, peers, and media sources that reinforce your values.

For managers and leaders:

• Recognize that not everyone communicates or processes information like you do.

• Actively design communication and work processes that accommodate diverse styles and preferences.

• Create opportunities for new hires to act as "culture detectives," leveraging their fresh perspectives to question established norms.

Final Thoughts

Unlearning silence connects deeply to the broader themes of meaningful work, employee well-being, and organizational culture. By creating environments where people feel empowered to express their authentic selves, organizations can tap into diverse perspectives, increase innovation, and improve overall job satisfaction.

Lin Hering’s work also touches on important issues of equity and inclusion in the workplace, highlighting how dominant cultural norms can silence marginalized voices and limit the potential for true diversity of thought.

"We're co-creating culture and everyone owns it. So what is my role in creating a space where each human being experiences dignity and belonging at work and is able to do their best work?"

Resources for Further Exploration

• Elaine Lin Hering's book: "Unlearning Silence: How to Speak Your Mind, Unleash Talent, and Live More Fully"

• Ankari Williams' work on micro-activism: link

Balancing Passion and Boundaries: Lessons from Frank Martela

In this episode of Meaningful Work Matters, host Andrew engages in an insightful conversation with Frank Martela, PhD about the nature of meaningful work, the dimensions of well-being, and the interconnections between sustainability and human thriving.

Dr. Martela is an Assistant Professor at Aalto University, Finland, with dual doctorates in organizational research and practical philosophy. His work focuses on meaningfulness, human motivation, and how organizations can unleash human potential. A renowned expert on meaning and happiness, his research seeks to understand the fundamentals of happiness, meaningfulness, and the good life.

Defining Meaningful Work

Martela begins by discussing his influential research on defining meaningful work. He explains that meaningful work generally refers to work that has intrinsic value beyond just financial compensation.

Through a comprehensive review of existing literature, Martela and his colleagues identified three key dimensions of meaningful work: overall significance, self-realization, and broader purpose.

Overall significance refers to the sense that work is worthwhile and valuable in itself.

Self-realization involves the ability to express oneself and engage in activities aligned with one's interests and values.

Broader purpose encompasses the feeling of contributing to something beyond oneself and having a positive impact on others or society.

Martela emphasizes that meaningful work involves both a connection to oneself and a connection to others or the wider world. This conceptualization provides a useful framework for understanding and fostering meaningfulness in various work contexts.

The Relationship Between Meaning and Purpose

An interesting discussion unfolds about the relationship between meaning and purpose, two concepts that are often intertwined in research and popular discourse.

Martela offers a nuanced perspective, suggesting that meaning is a broader concept encompassing all things that make life or work feel valuable, while purpose is more future-oriented, involving goals and projects that contribute to meaning. He notes that while purpose is often a key source of meaning, meaningful experiences can occur without explicit purpose, such as enjoying time with friends.

This distinction helps clarify the roles of meaning and purpose in both work and life contexts, highlighting the importance of considering both in efforts to enhance well-being and fulfillment.

The Dark Side of Meaningful Work

While meaningful work is generally associated with positive outcomes, Martela acknowledges potential downsides. He points out that people who find their work highly meaningful may be more susceptible to exploitation or overwork. Additionally, strong dedication to meaningful work might lead to neglecting other important life domains, resulting in work-life imbalance.

These insights underscore the importance of maintaining balance and boundaries, even when engaged in deeply meaningful work.

A New Model of Well-being

Martela introduces his innovative model of well-being, which is grounded in human needs and nature. The model consists of four dimensions:

• Having: Meeting basic physical and safety needs.

• Loving: Fulfilling social needs and relationships.

• Doing: Engaging in purposeful activities and growth.

• Being: Experiencing positive emotions and life satisfaction.

This framework offers a nuanced approach to understanding and measuring well-being, with potential applications in both policy and organizational contexts.

Applying the Model to Work Contexts

The conversation explores how Martela's well-being model can be applied specifically to work settings.

In the workplace, "having" involves basic safety, security, and fair compensation. "Loving" at work relates to belongingness, community, and supportive relationships. "Doing" encompasses learning, growth, competence, and purposeful impact. "Being" reflects job satisfaction and positive emotional experiences at work.

This application provides a holistic lens for evaluating and enhancing employee well-being across multiple dimensions. Soren and Martela discuss how these concepts can be measured and implemented in organizational settings, highlighting the importance of both comprehensive annual surveys and more frequent, simplified check-ins to gauge employee well-being.

Sustainability and Well-being

The episode concludes with a discussion on the crucial relationship between sustainability and well-being. Martela argues that the ultimate goal of politics and policy should be to promote well-being in a sustainable manner. This involves recognizing environmental limits and planetary boundaries, designing economic and social systems that maximize well-being within these limits, and developing standardized measures for both well-being and environmental impact to inform decision-making.

Martela emphasizes the need for an integrated approach to human flourishing and environmental stewardship, highlighting the importance of long-term thinking in our pursuit of well-being. He suggests that by considering well-being and sustainability together, we can create policies and practices that support human thriving while respecting the constraints of our planet.

Resources for further exploration:

For more information on Frank Martela's work and the topics discussed, listeners are encouraged to explore his website and visit the Aalto University website.

Principled Insubordination: Lessons From Dr. Todd Kashdan

In this episode of Meaningful Work Matters, Andrew sits down with Dr. Todd B. Kashdan, Professor of Psychology at George Mason University and author of "The Art of Insubordination: How to Dissent and Defy Effectively."

As one of the main figures in the positive psychology movement, Dr. Kashdan brings over 20 years of research on purpose, meaning, and well-being to this conversation about the value of principled rebellion in creating more meaningful work environments.

The Evolution of Purpose Research

The conversation begins with a reflection on how research on purpose and meaning has evolved over the past two decades. Kashdan highlights a key insight: "A lot of the things that were originally discussed as the defining features of purpose in life are actually things that could amplify it, or there are things in the environment that could influence it."

This distinction is crucial because it shifts our focus to potential intervention targets.

For example, rather than seeing an enriching environment as an inherent part of having purpose, we can now explore how factors like green spaces might influence the development of purpose in young people.

Kashdan also emphasizes that while disadvantaged circumstances can make it harder to commit time and effort to one's purpose, they don't inherently prevent someone from having a sense of purpose.

This nuanced understanding opens up new avenues for supporting purpose development across diverse populations.

The Value of Principled Rebellion

The heart of the conversation centers on Kashdan's recent book, "The Art of Insubordination." He argues that fostering principled rebellion is crucial for creating more innovative, inclusive, and meaningful work environments. Kashdan presents an equation of principled insubordination:

(Defiance x Authenticity + Contribution) / Social Pressure

This equation highlights the importance of genuine, constructive dissent in the face of social conformity pressures.

Kashdan asserts that "Dissent opens people's minds, conformity closes people's minds." Even when a dissenting idea is ultimately wrong, it stimulates "cognitive liberation," encouraging more creative problem-solving within the group. He further argues that "permitting and embracing dissent unlocks the benefits of diversity." It's not enough to have diverse team members; organizations need to create environments where unique perspectives are truly heard and valued.

Navigating the Challenges of Principled Rebellion

While advocating for more principled rebellion, Kashdan doesn't shy away from discussing the potential pitfalls. He introduces the concept of the "Black Sheep Effect," where dissenters often face harsher criticism from their in-group than outsiders would. This can make speaking up emotionally challenging. He also discusses the "Power Paradox," noting a tendency for successful dissenters to become inflexible once they gain majority support, potentially stifling future innovation.

Kashdan acknowledges that embracing dissent can create short-term inefficiencies but argues it leads to more robust, innovative solutions in the long run.

Strategies for Fostering Constructive Dissent

Kashdan offers several practical strategies for individuals and organizations looking to cultivate healthier dissent. He recommends that individuals diversify their identity portfolio, investing in multiple dimensions of their identity beyond work. This creates resilience, allowing people to better weather potential backlash from speaking up.

For organizations, he emphasizes the importance of separating task conflict from relationship conflict. This distinction allows for more productive discussions about ideas or methods without damaging working relationships.

When dissenting, individuals should focus on how their ideas contribute to shared goals rather than simply opposing the status quo. Kashdan also stresses the importance of creating safe spaces for minority perspectives. Even as formerly marginalized groups gain acceptance, it's crucial to maintain spaces where unique cultural identities can be fully expressed and honored.

Implications for Meaningful Work

This conversation has profound implications for how we think about creating meaningful work environments. It underscores the importance of psychological safety, where people feel secure expressing dissenting views without fear of personal repercussions. Leaders must recognize that fostering meaningful dissent often involves navigating complex trade-offs between short-term efficiency and long-term innovation.

Kashdan's insights challenge us to redefine success in organizational culture. Rather than seeing unanimity as a sign of strong culture, organizations should celebrate constructive disagreement as a marker of psychological safety and innovation potential. For individuals, engaging in principled rebellion can be a powerful source of meaning, allowing them to align their work with deeply held values and contribute to positive change.

By fostering environments that welcome principled rebellion, organizations can unlock greater innovation, inclusivity, and, ultimately, more meaningful work for all.

Resources for further exploration:

• The Art of Insubordination: How to Dissent and Defy Effectively by Todd B. Kashdan

• Origins of purpose in life: Refining our understanding of a life well lived by Todd B. Kashdan & Patrick E. McKnight

• Differential contributions of majority and minority influence by Charlan J. Nemeth

• The Power Paradox: How We Gain and Lose Influence by Dacher Keltner