Purpose Beyond the Self: Lessons from Kendall Cotton Bronk

In this episode of Meaningful Work Matters, Andrew Soren speaks with Kendall Cotton Bronk, Professor of Psychology at Claremont Graduate University and Principal Investigator of the Adolescent Moral Development Lab. A developmental psychologist with over 20 years of research experience, Kendall studies how young people cultivate purpose, character, and moral growth across diverse cultural contexts. Her work has spanned the U.S., Europe, Africa, and Asia, and has been featured in outlets like NPR, Forbes, and The Wall Street Journal.

Together, they explore how purpose evolves over a lifetime, why it must be paired with character to be socially constructive, and how cultural and generational context shape what purpose looks like in action.

What Is Purpose—and Why Does It Matter?

Kendall begins by clarifying what she means when she talks about purpose—not simply passion or goals, but something more enduring and outward-facing.

Her definition centers around three key elements:

  1. A far-horizon goal that gives direction, even if it’s never fully “achieved.”

  2. A personal commitment to act, where the individual actively works toward that goal.

  3. A desire to contribute beyond the self, leaving a meaningful mark on the world.

“A purpose isn’t just something we dream about,” she explains. “It’s something we engage in because it matters so deeply to us—and it moves our gaze beyond ourselves and into the broader world.”

This orientation, she argues, is central to why purpose supports well-being. When we’re focused on contributing to others—whether through family, community, faith, art, or work—we not only feel more hopeful, we help build a better world around us.

How Purpose Develops Over Time

Andrew and Kendall dig into the developmental nature of purpose, especially how it takes shape during adolescence and young adulthood—times when identity questions like “Who am I?” often give rise to questions like “What do I want to contribute?”

“We find that the process of figuring out who you are is closely tied to figuring out what your purpose is,” she says.

Still, she emphasizes that purpose can emerge at any age. Many people don’t fully form their purpose until midlife or beyond. Older adults often find renewed purpose through caregiving, mentoring, or encore careers—especially when their earlier work or roles shift.

Why Context and Culture Matter

Purpose may be a universal need, but its expression is deeply shaped by culture. Kendall shares insights from her international research, including studies in Taiwan, Liberia, and across Europe, that show how local norms, values, and expectations shape what young people see as purposeful.

In Taiwan, for example, adolescents spoke frequently about needing their parents’ support to pursue their purpose—something Kendall notes is less emphasized in more individualistic cultures like the U.S.

“Purpose is always contextual. It reflects the environment, the people around us, and the relationships we’re embedded in.”

This view stems from her lab’s use of Relational Developmental Systems theory, which sees individuals and their contexts as co-constructing one another.

Thriving people support thriving communities—and vice versa.

A Crisis of Reflection: The Role of Mind-Wandering

One of the more surprising takeaways from the episode is how critical mind-wandering is for cultivating purpose—and how rare those moments are today.

Kendall explains that the brain’s default mode network (the one activated during daydreaming) plays a key role in helping us make meaning and connect dots in our lives. But as digital distractions crowd out unstructured thought, people—especially young people—have fewer opportunities for reflection.

“I worry about the lack of mind-wandering,” she admits. “Those moments of looking out the window, thinking about the future, making meaning—they matter.”

While tech does provide access to causes and communities that can ignite purpose, she emphasizes the importance of reclaiming space for stillness and thought.

When Purpose Needs a Moral Compass

Not all purpose is pro-social.

That’s why Kendall is adamant that purpose must be paired with character and virtue—qualities like humility, compassion, and wisdom.

“Purpose in the wrong direction can be destructive,” she says. “Without values to guide it, it can be misused.”

In her work with schools, she encourages educators to go beyond lists of character traits and instead focus on practical wisdom—knowing which virtues to use, when, and how.

This mirrors Aristotle’s concept of phronesis, which Andrew points out is foundational to making ethical, context-sensitive decisions in both education and leadership.

Shared Purpose Starts with Shared Relationships

Later in the conversation, the focus turns to shared purpose—what happens when families, communities, or organizations work toward a common goal. Kendall shares findings from her study of families with shared philanthropic or business endeavors. In these families, shared purpose wasn’t forced—it grew out of strong relationships, regular communication, and respect between generations.

“They made time for fun, for listening, and for learning from each other,” she says. “And the older generation was willing to let the younger generation shape the future of that purpose.”

Andrew draws a connection here to organizations: it’s not enough to declare a mission. Leaders must help people see how their work contributes, and also create space for individuals to connect with that purpose in their own way.

The Tension Between Personal and Organizational Purpose

A recurring theme in the episode is the tension between individual purpose and institutional missions. Can organizations really foster purpose in a way that’s authentic—and not coercive?

Kendall acknowledges that this is a challenge. Top-down messaging rarely works. But when people are supported in seeing how their values align with the organization’s goals—and when they’re given freedom to shape that connection—shared purpose can emerge in powerful ways.

“Whenever possible, people should be able to make those connections themselves. That’s when it becomes meaningful.”

Takeaways for Anyone Supporting Purpose

  • Purpose is built through identity exploration, action, and contribution.

  • Reflection matters—we need more space for mind-wandering and meaning-making.

  • Purpose is shaped by context, and every generation faces new challenges and opportunities.

  • Character and wisdom are essential for ensuring that purpose is socially constructive.

  • Shared purpose grows from trust, dialogue, and a willingness to adapt across generations.

Resources for Further Exploration

Rethinking Meaningfulness Through a Cultural Lens: Lessons from Mohsen Joshanloo

In this episode of Meaningful Work Matters, host Andrew Soren speaks with Dr. Mohsen Joshanloo, a personality and cross-cultural psychologist whose research explores mental well-being, emotions, personality traits, and culture. Mohsen is an Associate Professor in the Department of Psychology at Keimyung University in South Korea and an Honorary Principal Fellow at the Centre for Wellbeing Science at the University of Melbourne. With a global perspective, he incorporates data from countries across six continents to challenge the assumption that emotional happiness and autonomy are universal ideals.

In their conversation, Soren and Joshanloo explore how different cultures define wellbeing, the phenomenon of “fear of happiness,” and why a sense of purpose may matter more than emotional happiness—especially at work.

The Western Bias in Wellbeing Models

Joshanloo opens with a critique of many dominant models of psychological wellbeing, which often originate in Western societies. These models prioritize individualistic traits like self-esteem, autonomy, and personal growth—an assumption that meaning must be self-generated to be authentic. These ideals don't always translate across cultures.

“The criticism isn’t that other cultures don’t value autonomy or purpose,” Joshanloo explains, “but that the definition of those things changes depending on cultural context.”

In what Joshanloo describes as collectivist or traditional societies, meaning is often derived from social roles, tradition, or guidance from elders. Far from being seen as conformist, these sources of meaning are deeply valued and can form the foundation of a fulfilling life.

Eudaimonic Wellbeing vs. Emotional Happiness

A central distinction in the conversation is between emotional happiness and eudaimonic wellbeing. Emotional happiness refers to short-term positive feelings, while eudaimonic wellbeing is rooted in dimensions like purpose, personal growth, and living in alignment with one’s values.

Mohsen’s longitudinal research has shown that:

  • Emotional happiness and eudaimonic wellbeing are correlated in the short term.

  • Over time, eudaimonic wellbeing predicts future emotional happiness—but not the other way around.

This finding suggests that chasing emotional highs may not lead to sustainable wellbeing. Instead, investing in purpose and meaning may be a more durable path to fulfillment.

Understanding Fear of Happiness

One of Mohsen’s most well-known contributions is his long-running research on the fear of happiness. Across 25+ countries, his team has explored why people in some cultures are hesitant to fully embrace or express happiness.

This fear isn’t about rejecting joy altogether, but rather a belief that intense happiness may lead to negative outcomes—like envy, loss, or punishment. In some cultures, visible happiness may invite the “evil eye” or signal carelessness, making restraint a form of protection.

“People may fear emotional happiness,” says Joshanloo, “but rarely do they fear growth, purpose, or contribution.”

This insight challenges the idea that emotional happiness is the ultimate human goal and helps expand the conversation around what it means to support wellbeing—particularly in diverse or global settings.

What Purpose Tells Us About Money and Satisfaction

In a global dataset spanning 94 countries, Joshanloo examined the relationship between income, purpose, and life satisfaction. His findings were striking: people without a clear sense of purpose placed more importance on income when evaluating their lives. For those with a strong sense of purpose, the correlation between income and life satisfaction was significantly weaker.

In other words, meaning can buffer our reliance on external markers of success.

This insight has direct implications for how we think about motivation, performance, and compensation at work. While money is important, purpose may be a more stable source of satisfaction—especially when work feels meaningful.

From Research to the Workplace: Why Mattering Comes First

So, how can organizations apply these insights?

Joshanloo emphasizes that before people can pursue purpose, they need to believe they matter. Feeling invisible or powerless undermines motivation, whereas believing you can make a difference is the first step toward purpose-driven engagement.

“You can’t make people feel they don’t matter and then expect them to be purposeful,” he says.

For leaders, this means that fostering inclusion and psychological safety is not just a cultural goal—it’s a strategic one. Only when employees feel valued can they fully engage with their work and find meaning in it.

Resources for Further Exploration

The Five Dimensions of Job Crafting: Lessons from Rob Baker

In this episode of Meaningful Work Matters, host Andrew Soren speaks with Rob Baker, a leading expert on job crafting and founder of Tailored Thinking, a pioneering evidence-based positive psychology consultancy. Named as one of HR Magazine's Most Influential Thinkers (#8 in 2023), Baker is a TEDX speaker, author of "Personalization at Work," and a Chartered Fellow of both the CIPD and the Australian HR Institute. His mission is simple yet profound: making work better and making better work.

Throughout the episode, Baker shares practical insights on how individuals can shape their work to better align with their strengths and values, making small yet meaningful changes that boost performance, well-being, and job satisfaction. They explore concrete strategies for crafting various aspects of our jobs and discuss what managers need to know to support their teams in this process.

What is Job Crafting?

Job crafting is about personalizing and shaping how we do our work so that our jobs align better with our passions, strengths, and interests. Baker explains the concept using a simple yet effective metaphor:

If you can imagine your job like a jacket or a dress that you buy off the peg, you often hope it’s going to be a good fit for you. You don’t know until you put it on. Job crafting is about shaping that job in small ways to make it a better fit for you as an individual.”

The key insight here is that while approximately 90% of most jobs are fixed (the "color" or "fabric" of the jacket), there are always opportunities to shape around the edges. These small adjustments can significantly impact how we experience our work.

This concept isn't just theoretical - it's backed by substantial research. Baker notes that over 170 peer-reviewed papers have explored job crafting, consistently finding positive outcomes in three core areas:

  1. Performance: People who craft their jobs tend to have more energy and zest, leading to better performance as measured by self-assessments, manager evaluations, and even customer service ratings.

  2. Well-being: When people feel in control of their job and can shape it, they report higher levels of well-being, satisfaction, and engagement. Job crafting can also buffer against workplace stress.

  3. Development: Job crafting is strongly linked to career progression, adaptability, and satisfaction. Those who report crafting behaviors tend to experience greater career mobility and fulfillment.

The Five Dimensions of Job Crafting

Baker identifies five distinct ways people can craft their jobs:

Task Crafting

This involves adjusting the activities you do or how you structure your day. Examples include:

  • Restructuring when you do certain tasks

  • Taking an existing task and approaching it differently

  • Using new tools or technologies to complete familiar tasks

Skill Crafting

This focuses on how you develop and apply your skills and knowledge at work. It might involve:

  • Seeking opportunities to learn new skills

  • Finding ways to use underutilized abilities

  • Adapting your approach to leverage your strengths

Purpose (Cognitive) Crafting

This dimension is about connecting to what's meaningful and purposeful for you:

  • Finding aspects of your work that align with your values

  • Reframing how you think about your role's impact

  • Bringing external passions into the workplace (like starting a running club)

Relationship Crafting

This involves shaping your connections with others:

  • Amplifying relationships you enjoy

  • Fostering connections outside your immediate team

  • Adjusting how you interact with challenging colleagues (what Baker refers to as "energy black holes")

Wellbeing Crafting

This focuses on approaching work from a healthier perspective:

  • Creating rituals that support mental or physical health

  • Establishing boundaries to protect energy

  • Developing strategies to manage workplace stressors

Baker shares the example of a physiotherapist who, finding his work stressful with back-to-back patients, decided to take "100 mindful steps" when walking from his office to reception to collect each new patient. This simple well-being intervention helped him recenter and transition mindfully between patients.

Challenges and Considerations

While job crafting offers tremendous benefits, it's not without challenges. Baker addresses several potential concerns:

Management Skepticism

Some managers worry that giving employees permission to craft their jobs will lead to chaos or people shirking core responsibilities. Baker counters this with evidence:

"The reality the research shows, and this is my practical experience, is that most job crafting is in budgets of five to ten minutes a day, or like an hour a week max. People haven't got the bandwidth, the time, or the energy to go beyond that."

People tend to be realistic about what they can change, and they understand that most of their job remains fixed.

Implementation Without Follow-Through

One guaranteed way for job crafting to have a negative effect is if organizations introduce the concept but don't allow actual implementation:

"If you give people the rhetoric about it, you might give people the training about it, and then you don't allow people to execute...people will say, 'Well, hang on, you asked me to do one thing, and actually you are acting a different way.'"

This disconnect can lead to frustration and disengagement. Baker recommends starting with pilot groups to collect success stories before rolling out job crafting more broadly.

Vulnerability in Trying New Approaches

Employees may feel vulnerable when first attempting to craft their jobs, especially in cultures where this hasn't been the norm. Baker notes that providing support and reassurance during this transition is crucial.

Practical Applications and Implications

How to Start Job Crafting

Baker offers several practical approaches for individuals looking to craft their jobs:

  1. Energy Mapping Exercise: Draw a line with "gives energy" on one end and "takes energy" on the other. Plot your daily tasks along this spectrum, then consider how to amplify energizing activities and reshape draining ones.

  2. Focus on One Thing: Instead of trying to change everything at once, identify one aspect of your job you'd like to improve and start there.

  3. Schedule "Me Meetings": Baker notes that while we attend countless meetings for others, we rarely schedule time for ourselves. Set aside 30-60 minutes to reflect on what you'd like to change about your work.

  4. Reframe Unavoidable Tasks: For tasks you dislike but can't eliminate, consider their deeper purpose and create a system to make them more palatable. Baker shares how he became "frenemies with expenses" by recognizing their importance to the business and rewarding himself with a KitKat Chunky after completion.

For Managers Supporting Job Crafting

Managers can foster an environment conducive to job crafting by:

  1. Creating Space for Honest Conversations: Ask questions like "What are you enjoying about your job?" or "If you could make your job 1% better, what would you do?"

  2. Listening Sincerely: Show genuine interest in employees' ideas rather than merely going through the motions.

  3. Embedding Job Crafting in Performance Reviews: Some organizations have successfully integrated job crafting discussions into regular performance check-ins, focusing on different dimensions each quarter.

  4. Adopting an Experimental Mindset: Encourage employees to try small changes with the understanding that not all experiments will succeed.

  5. Believing in Employee Capability: At its core, supporting job crafting requires trusting that employees can thoughtfully reshape aspects of their work while still meeting core responsibilities.

Connections to Broader Themes

Soren and Baker discuss how job crafting connects to larger workplace themes, particularly autonomy and the post-pandemic shift in work arrangements. They note that job crafting shares elements with Self-Determination Theory (discussed in a previous episode with Ann Bradford [link]), especially the power of choice and autonomy in creating meaningful work.

The conversation also touches on how job crafting relates to the ongoing debate about remote versus in-office work. The backlash against companies requiring office returns after offering flexibility parallels the frustration that can occur when organizations introduce job crafting but later restrict it.

Future Directions and Ongoing Work

Looking ahead, Baker sees job crafting becoming a core skill in the changing landscape of work:

"If you think about pre-pandemic...wouldn't it be great if we could get everyone to top up their well-being and resilience skills? I think job crafting is a skill set that enables people to be able to change and agile flex in terms of how they pursue their role."

Further, as artificial intelligence and automation transform jobs, Baker suggests that job crafting capabilities will become increasingly valuable. He encourages organizations to involve employees in harnessing new technologies rather than imposing changes without consultation.

An intriguing potential application involves using AI tools like ChatGPT to support job crafting - not just for efficiency but for energy:

"Most organizations or most people want to talk about using AI in their own roles, they talk about seeking efficiency. And I'd love people to use the E word, but change it to energy...rather than doing the same things faster, can you bring more energy and lightness to what you're doing?"

Key Takeaways

  1. Job crafting involves making small, intentional changes to align your work better with your strengths, values, and interests.

  2. There are five dimensions of job crafting: tasks, skills, purpose, relationships, and well-being.

  3. Research shows job crafting improves performance, well-being, and career development.

  4. Most people craft their jobs in small increments (5-10 minutes daily or an hour weekly).

  5. Managers can support job crafting by creating space for honest conversations, listening sincerely, and adopting an experimental mindset.

Job crafting offers a powerful framework for anyone looking to find greater meaning and satisfaction in their work. By making small adjustments across the five dimensions - tasks, skills, purpose, relationships, and well-being - individuals can transform their experience of work without necessarily changing jobs.

As Baker reminds us, the question we should all be asking is: "What can bring you more energy?" By focusing on energy rather than mere efficiency, job crafting provides a path toward work that is not just better performed but more deeply fulfilling.

Resources for Further Exploration

Understanding Our Multitudes: Lessons from Reb Rebele [Parts One & Two]

In this episode of Meaningful Work Matters, host Andrew Soren chats with Reb Rebele, a psychological scientist, author, teacher, and advisor. Rebele teaches MBA students in Melbourne, Australia and brings over a decade of experience researching positive psychology and organizational behavior at the University of Pennsylvania. Rebele dedicates their career to helping individuals, teams, and organizations improve well-being, enhance creativity and collaboration, and achieve their goals.

In Part One, Soren and Rebele explore the dynamic nature of personality and how understanding our different personality states can help us navigate the complexities of meaningful work. Rebele challenges common assumptions about authenticity and examines ways to intentionally adjust our personality expression to achieve our goals while maintaining sincerity in our work lives.

Breaking Down the Personality Box

As Rebele declares, "nobody really wants to be just one kind of person." Their research highlights how we all possess core personality traits that persist over time, yet contain multitudes of possible ways of being.

This insight challenges the traditional view of personality as fixed and unchangeable.

The data tells us that even the most introverted person experiences moments of high extroversion, and vice versa. These fluctuations stem not just from our situations, but from our goals and motivations in the moment.

When we want to connect with others, we act more extroverted.

When we pursue productivity or achievement, different aspects of our personality emerge.

The Authenticity Paradox

Rebele's work also challenges conventional wisdom about authenticity.

Rather than equating authenticity with behavioral consistency, Rebele’s research suggests that truly authentic people express different sides of themselves based on their goals and context.

Authenticity can become a restrictive box - one we place ourselves in and others place us in. When we demand constant authenticity while assuming someone embodies just one personality type, we limit their freedom to express their full range of experiences and interactions.

Managing Your Multiple Selves at Work

Understanding personality dynamics offers practical strategies for those seeking meaningful work. Rebele emphasizes how tasks that require us to act against our natural dispositions drain additional energy and resources.

Success lies not in avoiding these situations, but in managing them strategically.

Rebele goes on to share an example. "I exercise before teaching, think about my caffeine intake, and ensure I get enough rest. Without these preparations, I tend toward neurotic and withdrawn behavior." These are the kinds of deliberate efforts most of us practice to bring out the right versions of ourselves at the right time.

The Power of Restorative Niches

Personality psychologist Brian Little's concept of "restorative niches" plays a crucial role in managing our different personality states. Rebele recommends developing a recovery menu for various time frames:

  • Two minutes: Deep breathing, window gazing, or quick movement

  • Two hours: Extended breaks for deeper recovery

  • Two days: Weekend restoration

  • Two weeks: Complete vacation disconnection

This systematic approach to recovery helps professionals sustain their energy and authenticity while meeting their work's varying demands.

The Leadership Challenge

Middle managers face particularly high burnout rates because they must constantly switch between different work modes - from one-on-one support to strategic thinking to group facilitation. Yet organizations rarely provide tools to manage these transitions effectively.

Rebele recommends practical approaches like designating "maker days" and "manager days" to group tasks requiring different personality states.

Success depends on recognizing how different tasks demand different versions of ourselves and creating supportive conditions for those transitions.

Looking Ahead

By embracing our multiple selves and understanding the conditions that bring out different aspects of our personality, we gain greater agency in our professional lives. We can move beyond simplistic notions of authenticity toward a more nuanced understanding of how to show up as our best selves in different contexts.

Part 2 will explore collaboration's dark sides, generosity's pitfalls, and strategies for avoiding burnout while making a difference.


In Part Two of our conversation with Reb Rebele, we explore a paradox: while collaboration and generosity are essential elements of meaningful work, they can become counterproductive when not properly managed.

Building on our previous discussion about personality dynamics, Rebele reveals how organizational practices around collaboration and helping behaviors often undermine the very outcomes they aim to achieve.

The Hidden Costs of Being the "Go-To" Person

Rebele's research with colleague Rob Cross reveals that collaborative activities in organizations have increased by over 50% in recent years. This surge represents a fundamental shift in how work gets done.

"Even before the pandemic pushed everybody onto Zoom," Rebele explains, "time spent at work in collaborative activities had ballooned by 50% or more."

The consequences of this shift are counterintuitive.

Through network analysis studies, Rebele and Cross found that employees with reputations for being effective information sources and helpful colleagues often face the highest risk of burnout and turnover. "You become known as the really helpful, smart, good information source person. It sets the seeds for your potential demise in that organization," Rebele notes. This pattern creates a paradox where organizations inadvertently drive away their most valuable collaborators.

The rise of remote work has intensified these challenges.

Rebele points to Microsoft's research on the "triple peak workday," where employees now face three distinct peaks of collaborative activity—morning, afternoon, and a new post-dinner surge. This pattern suggests that rather than creating more flexibility, hybrid work may be expanding the collaborative demands on our time.

The Generosity Burnout Trap

Parallel to the collaboration challenge, Rebele's research with teachers showed that the most selfless educators had students who achieved less than teachers who maintained healthy boundaries.

"We think about self-development often as kind of a selfish activity," Rebele observes. "We discount the fact that if I take that time now, it might make me even better at helping people later on."

This insight challenges the common assumption that more helping is always better, and instead suggests instead that sustainable impact requires balancing generosity with self-care.

Systematic Solutions for Sustainable Collaboration

Rather than treating excessive collaboration as an individual problem, Rebele advocates for systematic organizational approaches.

One example is Dropbox's innovative experiment with a "meeting reset," where the company temporarily removed all recurring meetings from calendars and established new norms around meeting participation. This intervention allowed teams to rebuild their collaborative practices more intentionally.

Rebele also recommends practical strategies for individuals:

Creating a "help network map" to understand patterns of giving and receiving assistance across your professional relationships. This exercise reveals not just who you help, but also identifies potential resources you might be underutilizing.

Developing what Brian Little calls "restorative niches"—spaces and times for recovery between collaborative demands. These can range from two-minute breaks between meetings to longer periods of focused work.

Minutes

  • Deep breaths
  • Look out a window
  • Quick stretch

Weeks

  • Full mental rest
  • New environments
  • Passion project

Hours

  • Proper lunch break
  • Walk outside
  • Exercise

Days

  • Engage in hobbies
  • Time in nature
  • Complete disconnection
2

Reimagining Collaboration for Meaningful Work

The challenge, Rebele suggests, isn't to eliminate collaboration but to make it more purposeful.

"We need to manage it well, and we need to think about how to manage it together, because our default behaviors very often lead us into a place where we get more of the worst of both worlds."

This means rethinking traditional approaches to workplace interaction.

For instance, rather than defaulting to standard hybrid work policies focused on days per week in the office, organizations might consider alternative structures like monthly or quarterly in-person collaboration periods.

The goal is to create conditions where both connection and individual work can thrive.

As Rebele notes, "Collaboration is important to the organization...It's where a lot of good ideas come from. It's also really important to employees...It's the social side of meaningful work."

Looking Forward

The insights from this conversation suggest a framework for thinking about collaboration and generosity in the context of meaningful work. Rather than maximizing these behaviors, the focus shifts to optimizing them—creating sustainable practices that enhance both individual wellbeing and organizational effectiveness.

By understanding the dynamics of collaboration and generosity, we can build work environments that support meaningful connection without leading to burnout.

Resources for further exploration

Indigenous Perspectives on Meaningful Work: Lessons from Adam Murry and Alvan Yuan

In this episode of Meaningful Work Matters, host Andrew Soren sits down with two researchers who are enhancing our understanding of meaningful work through an Indigenous lens.

Dr. Adam Murry, an associate professor of psychology at the University of Calgary with Ukrainian, Irish, and Apache heritage, and his graduate student Alvan Yuan, a Canadian of Taiwanese descent, offer an exploration of Indigenous perspectives in workplace settings.

Drawing from their extensive research in post-secondary institutions, Murray and Yuan go beyond describing workplace experiences. They provide a comprehensive analysis that challenges existing paradigms of meaningful work, offering practical insights for leaders and organizations seeking to create more inclusive, purposeful work environments.

Their study explores the complex ways Indigenous faculty and staff in post-secondary institutions define, experience, and navigate professional purpose, while also presenting actionable strategies for organizational transformation.

The Research Journey

The conversation begins with the backstory of their research, which emerged from a critical question posed by university leadership: How can we retain and support Indigenous faculty and staff?

Murry explains that this wasn't just another academic exercise, but a deeply purposeful investigation prompted by concerns about Indigenous employees being recruited away from their institutions.

The researchers interviewed 18 Indigenous faculty and staff from universities across Western Canada, focusing on understanding their experiences of meaningful work. Their approach was deliberately collaborative, rooted in Murry's long-standing commitment to research that genuinely serves Indigenous communities.

Redefining Meaningful Work

Through their interviews, Murry and Yuan uncovered an holistic understanding of meaningful work that extends far beyond traditional workplace metrics. For the Indigenous employees the spoke with, work is intrinsically linked to broader concepts of community, ancestry, and collective purpose.

Three key dimensions emerged as central to their sense of meaningful work:

1 Generational Belonging - seeing work as a continuation of ancestral labor and a service to both current and future generations. This perspective transforms work from an individual pursuit to a collective journey of community advancement.

2 Connectedness - not just to immediate colleagues, but to community, land, and cultural context. This connectedness is far more comprehensive than typical workplace understanding of team dynamics.

3 Job Design - finding meaning in work that directly aligns with Indigenous causes or personal cultural beliefs. The job itself becomes a vehicle for cultural preservation and community empowerment.

The Invisible Labor of Indigenous Professionals

Murry and Yuan don't shy away from naming the systemic challenges Indigenous employees face.

They describe what they term the "minority tax" - an invisible burden of additional unrecognized labor. Indigenous faculty and staff are simultaneously expected to represent entire Indigenous experiences while managing traditional job responsibilities, all while confronting deep-rooted colonial structures within institutions.

The researchers highlight a critical tension: organizations frequently seek to leverage Indigenous employees' community-driven values without providing adequate support, recognition, or compensation.

This dynamic often leads to burnout, frustration, and a sense of exploitation.

Pathways to Organizational Transformation

The research offers compelling recommendations for meaningful change. Murry and Yuan advocate for a radical reimagining of workplace structures that goes beyond surface-level diversity initiatives.

Key strategies include:

  • Providing genuine job crafting opportunities

  • Encoding community-focused work into formal job descriptions

  • Creating promotion criteria that truly recognize Indigenous contributions

  • Allowing Indigenous employees to define decolonization on their own terms

Decolonization as a Workplace Journey

The researchers frame meaningful work as a potential avenue for reconciliation - a space where systemic barriers can be challenged and transformed.

They draw on the powerful insight that decolonization is not just an institutional mandate, but a deeply personal process of reclaiming narrative and purpose.

Conclusion

Murry and Yuan invite us to expand our understanding of meaningful work.

They challenge us to recognize that career purpose is a deeply personal journey shaped by cultural context, historical experiences, and collective aspirations.

For organizations seeking greater diversity, equity, and inclusion, this research offers a transformative roadmap - one that honors the rich, multifaceted experiences of Indigenous professionals and reimagines workplace culture through a lens of genuine respect and mutual understanding.

Resources Mentioned

Beyond Perfect Performance: Lessons from Sonya Looney

In this episode of Meaningful Work Matters, host Andrew Soren explores the intricate relationship between perfectionism and meaningful work with Sonya Looney, a unique voice at the intersection of elite performance and well-being. As a World Champion mountain biker with two decades of endurance racing experience, NBC-HWC-certified mental performance coach, and researcher, Looney brings both scientific rigor and lived experience to the conversation. Her unique combination of athletic achievement, coaching expertise, and interdisciplinary education allows her to offer distinctive insights into resilience, healthy striving, and the complex dynamics of perfectionism in high-performance settings.

Understanding Perfectionism in High Achievement

Looney introduces perfectionism through the multi-dimensional model developed by Flett and Hewitt, which identifies three key dimensions:

"We're perfectionistic in three ways: We have very high standards for ourselves, we have very high standards for other people, or we expect to meet other people's standards, society's standards, someone else's standards."

This framework helps explain why many high achievers struggle to find satisfaction in their accomplishments, often experiencing what Looney describes as "excessive striving, self-validation through goals, and difficulty in realizing a sense of accomplishment."

The Paradox of Performance and Purpose

One of the most striking insights from the episode is how perfectionism can actually undermine the meaningful aspects of work.

Through her personal journey as an elite athlete, Looney discovered that her most fulfilling moments weren't tied to race victories or performance metrics, but rather to the impact she had on others.

"If I win a race, I don't really care anymore. It's more how can I use this experience? How can I use my bike racing as a laboratory to help other people unlock their potential and find fulfillment in the process?"

From Personal Achievement to Social Impact

Looney's research reveals a shift in how we might approach goal-setting and achievement.

She introduces the concept of "meaningful other-ish goals," building on Adam Grant and Reb Rebele's work on "other-ish" behavior, where personal achievement becomes a vehicle for broader social impact.

Understanding Other-ish Goals
  • Combine personal achievement with social contribution
  • Focus on collective impact rather than individual success
  • Allow for both personal growth and community benefit
  • Emphasize immeasurable impacts over quantifiable metrics

The Challenge of Immeasurable Impact

A paradox emerges in Looney's work: the most meaningful accomplishments are often the ones we can't measure. As she notes:

"Maybe the immeasurability of it is actually helping perfectionists because they can't compare it to something. It's just a feeling and it's immeasurable."

This insight challenges traditional approaches to performance evaluation and success metrics, suggesting that our most significant contributions might exist beyond conventional measurement frameworks.

Practical Applications for Perfectionists

Looney offers several strategies for high achievers struggling with perfectionist tendencies:

  1. Balance your ‘goal portfolio’ between personal achievement and social impact

  1. Practice intentional savoring of accomplishments, especially focusing on impact on others

  2. Recognize that negative emotions can coexist with meaningful achievement

  3. Consider reducing measurement frequency of performance metrics

Resources for Further Exploration

Beyond the Billable Hour: Lessons from Anne Brafford [Parts One & Two]

In this two-part episode of Meaningful Work Matters, host Andrew Soren explores the complex intersection of meaningful work, identity, and the legal profession with Dr. Anne Brafford. A former Big Law equity partner turned well-being consultant and researcher, Brafford brings unique insights from both her personal journey and her academic research into how lawyers find - or struggle to find - meaning in their work.

Brafford is the owner of Aspire, an education and consulting firm for the legal profession, and a founder of the Institute for Well-Being in Law. Her work focuses on the intersection of inclusion, engagement, and well-being in legal workplaces, informed by both her practical experience as a former equity partner at one of the nation's largest law firms and her academic credentials - a PhD in positive organizational psychology from Claremont Graduate University and a Masters of Applied Positive Psychology (MAPP) from the University of Pennsylvania.

A Journey from Dream to Reality

Brafford's relationship with law began early - at age 11, she already knew she wanted to be a lawyer. As a first-generation college student who went on to achieve her childhood dream, becoming not just a lawyer but an equity partner at a prestigious firm, her story exemplifies both the allure and complexity of pursuing meaningful work in the legal profession.

What drew her specifically to employment law was its inherent connection to human psychology and problem-solving - themes that would later influence her transition into well-being research and consulting.

However, after achieving the pinnacle of success in Big Law, Brafford found herself grappling with questions about meaning and purpose: "After the achievement ran out… then there wasn't much left as far as meaningfulness went."

The Moral Dimension of Legal Practice

Brafford shares a powerful story about her mentor Carol, who demonstrated how lawyers could provide both legal and moral guidance to clients.

In an environment where law is often approached as amoral, Carol stood out by consistently incorporating ethical considerations alongside legal risk assessments.

Moral Leadership in Practice
  • Going beyond legal risk assessment to consider ethical implications
  • Acknowledging the human impact of business decisions
  • Building trust through consistent demonstration of care for broader interests
  • Creating space for moral reflection in client conversations

"My mentor would get involved in very tricky employment issues, like discharge issues always have a lot of moral weight to them," Brafford explains. "You're taking a person's livelihood away from them. But sometimes our clients forget that.

This approach manifested in practical ways, such as advising clients not just on legal risk but on moral implications - like the impact of terminating an employee just before their pension vested. Carol's example gave Brafford "permission and courage to develop more of that moral sensibility" in her own practice.

Identity and Gender in Legal Practice

Brafford's research illuminates patterns in how gender shapes career motivations and experiences in law. While law schools have maintained gender parity for decades with roughly 50% female enrollment, only 20-30% of law firm partners are women. This dramatic drop-off points to deeper systemic issues around how different identities experience and pursue meaningful work.

Her research reveals that women lawyers consistently cite meaningful work as a primary motivator for their careers, while men more frequently emphasize financial success and provider roles. These differences reflect broader societal patterns and expectations that shape how men and women approach their professional lives.

"When work gets hard, men can find more value in their provider role of this is hard, but I'm doing this for my family," Brafford notes. "Women who have not been socialized into that role... when it gets hard and meaningfulness is being drained, there's a bigger question of why am I doing this?"

Positive Changes in Legal Organizations

The conversation reveals encouraging developments in how law firms are evolving to create more meaningful work environments.

The COVID-19 pandemic, coupled with broader societal movements, has catalyzed significant cultural shifts. Law firms are increasingly taking public stances on important social issues and articulating clear organizational values - a dramatic departure from their traditionally neutral positioning.

Brafford highlights one particularly innovative example: a law firm's groundbreaking parental leave policy that challenges traditional hierarchies by offering expanded leave options that apply equally to all employees - not just lawyers. This approach recognizes that meaningful work environments must address both the professional and personal needs of their people.


In part two of our conversation with Dr. Anne Brafford, she delves into Self-Determination Theory (SDT) - a framework for understanding human motivation and flourishing that has profound implications for creating meaningful work environments.

Understanding Self-Determination Theory

At its core, Self-Determination Theory proposes that people share three basic psychological needs essential for optimal functioning and motivation: relatedness, competence, and autonomy.

As Brafford explains:

"We either need to figure out how to satisfy these needs ourselves, or even more so, our context needs to help support those needs."

Relatedness encompasses both close interpersonal relationships and a sense of belonging within significant groups or communities.

Competence reflects the need to feel effective and see that actions impact the environment.

The third need, autonomy, is often misunderstood. "Under self determination theory, autonomy isn't about independence," Brafford clarifies. "It's more about volition and authenticity - do I feel like I'm doing this because I'm being compelled, or do I feel that I am self-authoring, doing it because I am choosing to and because it aligns with my values and identities?"

The Quality of Motivation

Beyond identifying these core needs, SDT revolutionized our understanding of motivation by moving away from simple "on/off" models. Instead, motivation exists on a continuum of quality, ranging from amotivation (complete lack of motivation) through various forms of external motivation to fully autonomous motivation.

"What the theory proposes is that when our needs are satisfied in our context, we are more likely to be autonomously motivated in that context," Brafford explains.

This quality spectrum includes:

  • Amotivation: No motivation or connection to the task at hand

  • External motivation: Acting due to force or external rewards

  • Introjected motivation: Partially internalized but driven by guilt or ego

  • Identified motivation: Actions aligned with personal values

  • Integrated motivation: Full alignment across all aspects of identity

  • Intrinsic motivation: Acting from pure enjoyment or interest

Creating Conditions for Meaningful Work

The research shows remarkable connections between autonomous motivation and meaningful work. "What the research has found is that autonomous motivation is really strongly related to meaningful work - like 0.83 in one study," notes Brafford. "You're just not going to get meaningfulness at work unless you have autonomous motivation."

This insight has profound implications for leadership. Rather than relying on command-and-control, effective leaders focus on understanding what matters to their people and helping create conditions where they can connect their work to their values.

Supporting Psychological Needs in Practice

For organizations and leaders looking to foster meaningful work environments, Brafford emphasizes several key practices:

  1. Get to know people as individuals - understand their values, interests, and priorities

  2. Help frame the significance of work in ways that connect to what matters to them

  3. Structure work to support feelings of competence and growth

  4. Create opportunities for high-quality relationships and belonging

  5. Allow appropriate autonomy in how work gets done

Individual Agency in Need Satisfaction

While organizational support is crucial, Brafford also highlights the importance of individual "needs crafting" - proactively shaping our work to better meet psychological needs. This requires self-awareness and mindfulness about values and needs, along with the psychological flexibility to pursue them effectively in the moment.

Looking Ahead

The implications of Self-Determination Theory extend far beyond individual workplace satisfaction.

When organizations create environments that support basic psychological needs, they see improvements in engagement, wellbeing, performance, and retention. This science-based approach offers practical pathways to make work more meaningful for everyone involved.

Resources for Further Exploration

The Virtuous Organization: Lessons from Kim Cameron

This Meaningful Work Matters episode features Kim Cameron, a renowned expert in positive organizational scholarship and a faculty member at the University of Michigan's Ross School of Business.

Andrew and Kim discuss the essence of virtuous organizations and the incredible transformation they can bring about. Kim shares insights from his extensive research, including eight key dimensions pivotal in fostering an organization's virtuousness. From gratitude and appreciation to trust and integrity, these dimensions create a holistic environment for individuals to flourish.

Discover inspiring real-life stories of organizations that have embraced virtuousness in their cultures, even during challenging times like downsizing or a pandemic. This conversation with Kim Cameron is a must-listen if you want to understand how virtuous organizations can positively impact performance, well-being, and culture.

Stay connected with Meaningful Work Matters on your favorite podcast platform. Hit that "Follow" button to receive timely updates on new episodes and bonus content. If you love what you hear, take a moment to rate the podcast and leave a review. It helps us reach more listeners and build a community around meaningful work.

Positive Deviance Defined

Kim Cameron has been one of the driving forces behind Positive Organizational Scholarship (POS), an area of research that explores the what, how and why of positively deviant organizations. Organizations that are positively deviant go way beyond the usual expectations or norms. Not only do they achieve bottom-line performance, they also enact virtuous behavior, cultivate positive work culture, foster resilience, create inclusive growth and foster sustainable practices.

The Eight Dimensions of Virtuousness

Cameron identifies eight dimensions that contribute to virtuousness within organizations. These dimensions, when institutionalized, have been directly linked to high performance.

  1. Gratitude and Appreciation: Recognizing employees' contributions through gratitude practices that make people feel valued and valuable.

  2. Dignity and Respect: Work environments where all individuals are treated with dignity and are respected for their inherent worth.

  3. Support and Compassion: Providing empathetic support to employees, especially when facing challenges or difficulties.

  4. Caring and Concern: Closely related to compassion, it creates an environment where employees feel their well-being is a priority.

  5. Meaningfulness and Purpose: having a profound organizational purpose beyond transactional objectives and ensuring employees find meaning by understanding how they contribute to it.

  6. Positively Energizing Activities: Fostering positive energy through activities and behaviors that help others to dream, do, become, learn, and flourish.

  7. Forgiveness and Understanding: Fosters a culture where mistakes are seen as opportunities for growth and learning, promoting an atmosphere of forgiveness.

  8. Trust and Integrity: Ensuring that the organization operates with honesty and ethical principles, which in turn builds trust among employees and stakeholders.

These eight dimensions collectively contribute to an organizational culture that is not just focused on achieving financial success, but also on fostering a positive, virtuous, and supportive work environment. This holistic approach to organizational success is what differentiates such organizations and leads to exceptional performance across various metrics.

Virtuous Organizations in Action

In Derby, Connecticut, Griffin Hospital faced severe challenges, including a reputation for poor service, particularly in its OBGYN department. The crisis escalated when a respected director of operations, Pat Charmel was fired, sparking staff uproar. Employees, valuing Charmel's leadership, boldly interrupted a board meeting, demanding his reinstatement and the executives' dismissal. The board acquiesced, appointing Charmel as both President and CEO.

Charmel quickly addressed the hospital's negative image and discovered financial mismanagement by the previous CEO. Facing potential bankruptcy, he had to make tough decisions, including downsizing, which affected some of his strongest supporters.

Despite these hardships, Charmel's compassionate approach and strategic leadership turned the hospital around. Under his direction, Griffin Hospital recovered and thrived, especially during the pandemic. It prioritized community health by providing COVID testing and vaccination services to vulnerable populations, emphasizing virtuous, community-focused actions over immediate profit.

Courageous Leadership in Virtuous Organizations

To truly listen and be innovative like Pat Charmel requires taking risks. Cameron talks about the kind of courageous leadership and unequivocal support from the top that is required in virtuous organizations. However, change cannot be top-down only; it needs involvement and buy-in from all levels. That means that a critical attribute of leadership in virtuous organizations is the capacity to cultivate a culture of support, innovation, and inclusive change.

Positive Energy and Resilience During Adversity

Cameron illustrates the point by discussing the University of Michigan's Business and Finance Group, where ‘positive energizers’ were identified and empowered to effect change. The energizers were tasked with a challenge to spread positive practices across the organization. These practices ranged from small gestures like bringing flowers to larger systemic changes like reward system overhauls. Remarkably, even during the pandemic, this approach led to significant improvements across various dimensions, proving that positive energy and innovative, people-focused initiatives can build resilience and drive improvement, even in adversity.

Ethics and Empirical Evidence in Virtuous Organizations

Discussing the ethical dimensions of virtuous organizations, Cameron places ethics as a mid-point in a continuum, with unethical behavior on one end and virtuousness on the other. He advocates for organizations not just to avoid harm but to actively do good. Cameron argues that empirical evidence showing the positive impact on bottom-line results can inspire leaders to adopt virtuous practices.

Cameron’s insights highlight the transformative power of virtuousness within organizations. By institutionalizing positive practices, organizations can achieve extraordinary outcomes while fostering employee flourishing.


The Meaning of Meaningful Work: Lessons from Michael Steger

In this episode of Meaningful Work Matters, we chat with Michael Steger, a luminary in the realm of meaningful work and life.

Steger, a Professor of Psychology and Founding Director of the Center for Meaning and Purpose at Colorado State University delves into the intricacies of finding coherence, purpose, and significance in our personal and professional lives.

Personalization of Meaning:

The podcast begins by emphasizing the highly individualized nature of finding meaning in life and work.

Steger points out that each person's journey to discovering purpose is shaped by their unique experiences, values, and aspirations. This personalization of meaning challenges the one-size-fits-all approach and encourages leaders to recognize and honor the diverse paths employees may take in their search for significance.

Dimensions of Meaning:

Steger introduces listeners to the four critical dimensions of meaning: coherence, purpose, significance, and mattering.

He explains that coherence involves understanding one's life and place in the world, while purpose is about having a sense of direction and motivation. Significance, on the other hand, relates to the feeling that one’s life has inherent value. A fourth dimension of mattering - related to how one adds value, has also emerged more recently in the literature.

This framework helps in demystifying the often abstract concept of meaning, also helping individuals and practitioners understand that there are multiple paths to meaning for all of us.

Steger argues that meaningful work should contribute positively to the broader venture of one's life, aligning with personal values and goals. This perspective shifts the focus from mere job satisfaction to a more holistic view of how work integrates into and enriches an individual's life.

Leadership and Meaningful Work:

The role of leadership in creating environments conducive to meaningful work is another focal point of the discussion.

Steger introduces the 'CARMA' model – a framework comprising clarity, authenticity, respect, mattering, and autonomy – as an evidence-based guide for leaders. This model emphasizes the importance of clarity of communication, authentic interactions, mutual respect, recognizing how each employee’s contribution matters, and allowing autonomy.

These leadership behaviors have been shown to cultivate workplaces where employees feel valued, understood, and connected to their work on a deeper level.

They have also been shown to increase an employee’s willingness to recommend their workplace as a great place to work to others.

Systemic Perspective on Meaningful Work:

It is important to take a systemic perspective to meaningful work. Steger stresses the need to consider the broader societal and organizational contexts that shape individual experiences of meaning at work. This underscores the complexity of the issue and the necessity for leaders and organizational practitioners to be aware of the various external factors that can impact the sense of meaning and purpose employees find in their work.

This episode of "Meaningful Work Matters" is filled with insights for anyone committed to creating a more meaningful work environment. The conversation not only sheds light on the nuanced nature of meaning in work but also offers practical strategies for fostering an enriching workplace. For organizational leaders and practitioners in positive psychology, Steger’s perspectives serve as a valuable guide in the quest to enhance the sense of purpose and fulfillment within their organizations.

Resources:

Michael Steger: Laboratory for the Study of Meaning and Quality of Life

Meaningful Work is about Much More than Purpose

Meaningful Work, Well-Being, and Health: Enacting a Eudaimonic Vision

The Double-Edged Sword of Meaningful Work: Lessons from Andrew Soren

In the bustling world of work and productivity, the quest for meaningful work has become a north star for many. But is all meaningful work beneficial?

Andrew Soren, founder of Eudaimonic by Design, hosts the debut episode of Meaningful Work Matters, which delves into the intricate dance between the highs and lows of engaging in work that matters deeply to us.

The Allure of Meaningful Work

Meaningful work is not a luxury but a fundamental component of our well-being. As Andrew elucidates, work that feels significant and worthwhile can enhance our commitment, engagement, and satisfaction. The benefits extend beyond the personal sphere, fostering a culture of creativity, innovation, and altruism within organizations.

The Hidden Costs

The research also reveals the dark sides of meaningful work: the potential for exploitation and burnout. When work has a high moral stake and becomes an obsession or when employers leverage our passion without decent working conditions, meaningful work can transform from a source of fulfillment into a wellspring of dissatisfaction, stress, and burnout.

The Crucial Element of Decency

Central to the discussion is the concept of "decent work" - safe, equitable, and dignified work. Drawing from the principles set by the Industrial Labor Organization, Soren advocates for a balance between meaning and decency. He argues that meaningful work, devoid of decency, can lead to exploitation and burnout. Conversely, work grounded in respect, equity, and security paves the way for true fulfillment.

Navigating the Path Forward

Andrew presents a blueprint for cultivating environments where meaningful and decent work can thrive. We need policies and regulations to ensure decent working conditions for those engaged in meaningful work. In organizations, we can design the cultures, practices, and leadership behaviors that enable those engaged in meaningful work to thrive. At the individual level, we can create interventions to help people understand what makes work personally significant and worthwhile and craft work that makes the most of an individual's strengths, values, and passions.

Your Role in Shaping Meaningful Work

As listeners, we're invited to reflect on our workplace and community roles. Whether you're a leader, policymaker, or team member, this podcast encourages you to consider how you can contribute to a more equitable and fulfilling work culture.

Join the Conversation

Meaningful Work Matters is not just a podcast; it's a call to action. As we navigate the complexities of the modern workforce, let's engage in conversations that matter. Share your thoughts, experiences, and aspirations with us. How do you define meaningful work? What steps can we take to ensure that work is meaningful and decent?

Visit our Resources page for insights and discussions on creating a better world through meaningful work. Together, we can make work a source of joy, growth, and fulfillment for all.

Resources to explore: