What Work Ought to Be: Lessons from Jennifer Tosti-Kharas and Christopher Wong Michaelson

In this episode of Meaningful Work Matters, Andrew speaks with Jennifer Tosti-Kharas and Christopher Wong Michaelson, co-authors of Is Your Work Worth It? and The Meaning and Purpose of Work. Jennifer is a management professor at Babson College and an organizational psychologist, while Christopher is a philosopher and professor of business ethics at the University of St. Thomas and NYU Stern.

Together, they bring complementary perspectives to one of the most pressing questions of our time: how do we understand meaningful work, both as individuals and as a society? Their conversation explores why “calling” is a double-edged sword, how 9/11 shaped their research trajectories, and what leaders and organizations must grapple with in a world of “bullshit jobs” and artificial intelligence.

Meaning as Subjective and Objective

Tosti-Kharas approaches meaningful work through psychology, where meaning lives in the mind of the person doing the work. Two people in the same role may experience their jobs entirely differently — one may see it as “just a paycheck” while another feels it is a calling.

Wong Michaelson complements this with a philosophical view. He argues that while work should feel meaningful to us and be valued by society, it must also be meaningful in itself. In other words, people can be wrong about whether their work is meaningful. The example he often cites: the 9/11 terrorists believed their work was meaningful, but their actions were objectively harmful.

Both perspectives highlight a tension that leaders and organizations cannot ignore: meaningful work is both personal and ethical.

The Legacy of 9/11

Tosti-Kharas and Wong Michaelson were management consultants in New York City during the 9/11 attacks. Living through that moment changed not only the course of their lives but also the direction of their research.

They noticed how victims were remembered through their work, and how this collective memory gave work meaning far beyond paychecks or promotions. This became the seed of their first collaborative research project and continues to shape their inquiry into how we ascribe value to work as individuals and as a society.

For many, 9/11 revealed that work is also a way we connect with others, a lens through which we are remembered, and a reflection of what we collectively value.

The Double-Edged Sword of Calling

Tosti-Kharas’s research, echoing scholars like Amy Wrzesniewski, shows that seeing work as a “calling” can be powerful, but it can also be risky. Calling can inspire dedication, resilience, and satisfaction. It can also leave people vulnerable to burnout, exploitation, and strained relationships.

In some workplaces, those who sacrifice everything for their jobs are celebrated, while boundaries and balance are overlooked. As Tosti-Kharas notes, “calling” is not available to everyone, and it should not be positioned as the only path to a meaningful life.

For leaders, this means acknowledging both the benefits and the dangers of purpose-driven work.

What Organizations Owe Their People

Wong Michaelson’s perspective pushes leaders to ask: What obligations do organizations have when it comes to meaningful work?

It is not enough to craft clever purpose statements or rely on employees’ intrinsic motivation. Organizations must create conditions that respect dignity, promote fairness, and avoid leaning too heavily on employees’ sense of purpose.

Tosti-Khara adds that this responsibility extends beyond knowledge workers.

Nearly half of the U.S. workforce work in jobs that pay less than $20,000 a year. For people in precarious or low-wage jobs, conversations about calling can feel irrelevant or even offensive. Here, meaningfulness may come not from the job itself but from what it enables outside of work — supporting family, giving back to community, or creating stability.

Bullshit Jobs, AI, and the Future

The dialogue also takes on the phenomenon of “bullshit jobs,” as described by David Graeber. Too many people spend their careers doing work that even they secretly believe is pointless. This is damaging to collective well-being, and inefficient.

Looking forward, generative AI raises new questions.

Will it automate the tasks we find meaningless and leave space for work that is truly fulfilling? Or will it strip away jobs that people find essential to their identity? Christopher remains optimistic that uniquely human qualities like creativity and care will continue to set us apart.

But both agree that society must rethink how we define and distribute meaningful work in an era of rapid technological change.

Key Takeaways

• Meaning is both personal and ethical. Psychology reminds us that people experience meaning differently, while philosophy reminds us that work should serve a greater good. Together, these lenses expand how we think about what makes work truly matter.

• A calling can inspire and harm. Seeing work as a calling can fuel passion and commitment, but research shows it also makes people more vulnerable to burnout, exploitation, and blurred boundaries between work and life.

• Organizations shape the conditions for meaning. Beyond slogans or purpose statements, leaders have a responsibility to design jobs and workplaces that respect human dignity, create fairness, and avoid over-relying on employees’ sense of purpose.

• The future of work raises new questions. From “bullshit jobs” to the rise of AI, work will continue to evolve in ways that affect how people find and sustain meaning. Being creative, caring, and intentional about how we use these tools will be critical.

Final Thoughts

Tosti-Kharas and Wong Michaelson remind us that meaningful work is never just an individual question. It is also about how we remember one another, what we value as a society, and what organizations owe their people.

As we mark the week of 9/11, their reflections underscore that the meaning of work often becomes most visible in moments of crisis, and that the choices we make about work ripple far beyond ourselves.

Resources for Further Exploration

• Is Your Work Worth It? How to Think About Meaningful Work (PublicAffairs, 2024) [link]

• The Meaning and Purpose of Work (Routledge, 2025) [link]

• Connect with Jennifer Tosti-Kharas on [LinkedIn]

• Connect with Christopher Wong Michaelson on [LinkedIn]

Work, Well-Being, and Community in Māori Tradition: Lessons from Ella Henry

In this episode of Meaningful Work Matters, Andrew Soren spoke with Ella Henry, a professor of entrepreneurship at Auckland University of Technology.

Henry has primarily focused her research, teaching, and advocacy on Māori media and business development. She has used her own heritage to better understand meaningful work through the ideas of calling and vocation.

Māori Culture and Meaningful Work

According to Henry, the Māori tend to use different language when discussing their work. In a traditional society, the elders would have assessed the skills of the young people in the tribe and raised them to train toward a specific calling. Even though that is not generally the way that society works anymore, the Māori still try to do work that is not just meaningful for themselves, but for their people.

Henry reflects on learning value from her father, who had a heart attack when she was young and was unable to continue working on the factory floor. Her father instead began working at the coffee cart at the factory, though his job change was somewhat embarrassing for Henry. She says her father reminded her that it’s a privilege to be able to choose one’s career, and that his meaning came from his energy and vitality, not the service he was performing.

Whare Tapa Whā

Henry draws on Sir Mason Durie's model of "whare tapa whā" to inform her perspective on wellbeing. The concept describes health as a holistic balance across physical, emotional, spiritual, and family dimensions. Henry stresses the interconnectedness of these aspects and their role in achieving fulfillment and purpose.

The Māori people believe that one’s strengths, community, and environment all play a part in guiding their path — meaning that one’s calling is not just connected to the work that they do.

Henry critiques Western individualism and capitalist structures, advocating for a return to communal values and relational leadership models rooted in indigenous traditions.

Looking Beyond Financial Wealth

Western culture links one’s work to their wealth. However, Henry points out how indigenous perspectives believe in various forms of capital beyond financial wealth.She explores social capital, cultural capital, and spiritual capital, highlighting their importance in fostering wellbeing and resilience within indigenous communities.

Henry also believes that shifting one’s attention away from financial wealth is the way to make the human race a “truly sustainable, connected species.” She stresses the importance of shifting focus from individualism to community-centered approaches, emphasizing the benefits of synergy and collective well-being.

“To be able to be part of a community that has that sense that it doesn't matter if you're the bus driver, or the mayor, or the property developer, because you're all doing these things for the same reason, which is the betterment of the community… that's my hope for us as a species,” she says.

Avoiding Burnout In Meaningful Work

The more aligned someone’s values are with their work, the more meaning they are likely to find from it. However, as someone becomes more connected to their work, they also put their boundaries around work at risk. This can lead quickly to burnout, Henry warns.

Henry relates this line of thinking back to the Māori people who seek work that relates to their own experiences, especially those who are attracted to work in health or social service. They are attracted to it because they have their own backgrounds of trauma, Henry explains. While one’s own experiences can be an asset in this type of work, it can also quickly become detrimental.

Henry emphasizes the importance of strong community support and mentorship in navigating these challenges.

Final Thoughts

Henry has focused her work on “rebuilding the worldview” of the Māori people, acknowledging the amount of information and knowledge that indigenous people have lost due to settlers. Her work has not always been met with open arms, either. She highlights the challenges faced in reclaiming indigenous knowledge, including resistance from mainstream academia and shifting political landscapes.

Henry ends by discussing the idea of combining indigenous knowledge and thought processes with those of the settler perspective. While she remains committed to promoting Māori science and culture, she also sees a value in weaving together diverse perspectives to create a new, holistic worldview.

In order to do that, society must put resources into preserving indigenous cultures and their world views.

Discovering Your Calling: Lessons from Jeffery Thompson

In this episode of Meaningful Work Matters, Andrew Soren spoke with Jeff Thompson, Director of the Sorensen Center for Moral and Ethical Leadership at BYU, where he has also been a professor for over 20 years. Jeff’s calling in life is to assist people in discovering and pursuing their own sense of calling, and his work focuses on meaningful work, particularly in health care.

Thompson has spent his career researching how individuals discover a sense of calling in their work, which he came to through his work helping to make physicians feel valued at work, as well as understanding why medical professionals struggle to work for corporate entities. Ultimately, he is passionate about ensuring that organizations feel safe and that people can express their values at work.

Discovering a Calling

Thompson offers a nuanced definition of a calling, describing it as the intersection of one's natural talents, passions, and a sense of purpose that beckons them. He emphasizes the importance of passion, purpose, and place in defining a calling, drawing parallels to eudaimonic theories of meaningful work.

The idea of a calling can be traced throughout history, finding its roots with Martin Luther in the Protestant Reformation. Prior to Luther's time, work was often viewed as mundane or even burdensome, but Luther introduced the notion that work could be a noble endeavor, a partnership with God to bless humanity. This transformed the perception of work, imbuing it with a sense of purpose and dignity. The term "calling" emerged from this religious context but has since become secularized, with individuals from diverse backgrounds seeking meaningful work experiences.

There are some contemporary challenges with the idea of a calling, as Thompson explains, noting that while there is a widespread desire for meaningful work, there is often ambiguity about who or what is doing the calling. This ambiguity may lead to a sense of entitlement to a fulfilling career without a clear understanding of its origins or implications.

The Popularity of Meaningful Work

In recent years, Thompson says, there has been a surge in interest in meaningful work and finding a calling, especially among students. Thompson explains that, as an educator, he has observed a shift in  students' aspirations towards finding meaningful work. He notes a growing desire among individuals to feel valued and make a meaningful contribution, reflecting an inherent human urge to matter in society.

Transcendent Calling

Thompson also explores the idea of a "transcendent calling," as discussed in a recent article he co-authored with Stuart Bunderson.

Drawing inspiration from Abraham Maslow's theory of self-transcendence, the idea proposes that a transcendent calling occurs when an individual's inner passion aligns with an external purpose or societal need. This alignment represents the pinnacle of motivation and fulfillment, bridging personal fulfillment with broader societal contribution.

Thompson’s own studies reflect this theory, particularly one on zookeepers, which challenged stereotypes about their profession. Despite low pay and challenging working conditions, zookeepers expressed a profound sense of calling and dedication to their work. This dedication stemmed from their passion for animals and their belief in the importance of their role in conservation efforts.

Exploitation in the Workplace

Through this research, Thompson also discovered the idea of “commitment camouflaging”, where employees hide their dedication to avoid exploitation by management.

Thompson says that many people will find value in their work, despite challenging circumstances. Even the jobs that seem the most menial can be imbued with purpose and meaning.

Teachers are among those professionals who often face significant exploitation in the workplace, but many remain committed to their calling due to the importance of their work. According to Thompson, individuals may be able to mitigate the negative effects of such exploitation if they feel a profound sense of calling.

Leadership and a Sense of Calling

Thompson emphasizes the concept of dignity, which highlights the infinite worth of individuals and the importance of recognizing their contributions, especially in the workplace. He suggests that leaders should remain aware of their employees’ desire to find a calling, and they should view that quest as noble.

Therefore, they should strive to honor, reward, and respect that endeavor accordingly for all employees.

Thompson provides a number of ways to put this into practice, including expressing gratitude, offering opportunities for initiative and growth, and fostering a sense of community among like-minded individuals.

Final Thoughts

All employees should feel that their work is respected and their desire for a greater purpose is understood. For anyone who feels their calling is not recognized, Thompson advises seeking support from peers.

He also urges every person to understand that there are risks to the search for a calling, as leaning too far into that desire can cause a severe moral burden that is hard to emerge from.

Meaning is inherently existential in nature and, therefore, it can be difficult to find. It is likely an ongoing quest that will last a lifetime.

The Double-Edged Sword of Meaningful Work: Lessons from Andrew Soren

In the bustling world of work and productivity, the quest for meaningful work has become a north star for many. But is all meaningful work beneficial?

Andrew Soren, founder of Eudaimonic by Design, hosts the debut episode of Meaningful Work Matters, which delves into the intricate dance between the highs and lows of engaging in work that matters deeply to us.

The Allure of Meaningful Work

Meaningful work is not a luxury but a fundamental component of our well-being. As Andrew elucidates, work that feels significant and worthwhile can enhance our commitment, engagement, and satisfaction. The benefits extend beyond the personal sphere, fostering a culture of creativity, innovation, and altruism within organizations.

The Hidden Costs

The research also reveals the dark sides of meaningful work: the potential for exploitation and burnout. When work has a high moral stake and becomes an obsession or when employers leverage our passion without decent working conditions, meaningful work can transform from a source of fulfillment into a wellspring of dissatisfaction, stress, and burnout.

The Crucial Element of Decency

Central to the discussion is the concept of "decent work" - safe, equitable, and dignified work. Drawing from the principles set by the Industrial Labor Organization, Soren advocates for a balance between meaning and decency. He argues that meaningful work, devoid of decency, can lead to exploitation and burnout. Conversely, work grounded in respect, equity, and security paves the way for true fulfillment.

Navigating the Path Forward

Andrew presents a blueprint for cultivating environments where meaningful and decent work can thrive. We need policies and regulations to ensure decent working conditions for those engaged in meaningful work. In organizations, we can design the cultures, practices, and leadership behaviors that enable those engaged in meaningful work to thrive. At the individual level, we can create interventions to help people understand what makes work personally significant and worthwhile and craft work that makes the most of an individual's strengths, values, and passions.

Your Role in Shaping Meaningful Work

As listeners, we're invited to reflect on our workplace and community roles. Whether you're a leader, policymaker, or team member, this podcast encourages you to consider how you can contribute to a more equitable and fulfilling work culture.

Join the Conversation

Meaningful Work Matters is not just a podcast; it's a call to action. As we navigate the complexities of the modern workforce, let's engage in conversations that matter. Share your thoughts, experiences, and aspirations with us. How do you define meaningful work? What steps can we take to ensure that work is meaningful and decent?

Visit our Resources page for insights and discussions on creating a better world through meaningful work. Together, we can make work a source of joy, growth, and fulfillment for all.

Resources to explore:

• Meaningful Work, Well-Being, and Health: Enacting a Eudaimonic Vision by Andrew Soren and Carol D. Ryff