Growth Beyond the Ladder: Lessons from Beverly Kaye

On this episode of Meaningful Work Matters, we’re joined by Dr. Beverly (Bev) Kaye, a pioneer in the fields of career development, employee engagement, and retention. Over the course of nearly five decades, Kaye has helped organizations and leaders rethink how people grow at work. Her bestselling books include Up Is Not the Only Way (1982), Love ’Em or Lose ’Em: Getting Good People to Stay (1999, now in its 6th edition), and Help Them Grow or Watch Them Go (2012, with a new edition released in 2023). Her work has consistently made complex ideas simple, accessible, and practical for managers and employees alike.

Growth Beyond the Ladder

One of Kaye’s earliest contributions came with the idea that career growth is not just about climbing upward.

In Up Is Not the Only Way, she encouraged employees and managers to think of careers as kaleidoscopes rather than telescopes. Instead of aiming for one distant goal, people can shift perspectives, take on new challenges, or expand in lateral directions without leaving their current role. This idea foreshadowed today’s conversations around job crafting, a theme previously explored on the podcast with Rob Baker.

As Soren noted in their conversation, research on psychological well-being has shown that personal growth and development are essential not just for engagement but also for our overall health and longevity.

Growth isn’t a “nice to have.” It’s central to a meaningful and sustainable career.

Conversations That Signal Mattering

Kaye emphasized that the most powerful way leaders communicate you matter is through conversation. This can be as simple as noticing when someone lights up during a task and naming it: “I noticed your energy when you led that meeting. What about it excited you?”

The episode connects to past discussions on mattering, such as with Zach Mercurio, who underscored why feeling valued and adding value are essential, and Isaac Prilleltensky, who explored how mattering shows up as both being valued and contributing value.

Kaye builds on these ideas by stressing the micro-moments of noticing and saying what you see, which are gestures that turn ordinary interactions into signals of recognition and care.

Opportunity Minded vs. Opportunity Blinded

Another sticky concept Kaye introduced is the idea of being opportunity minded versus opportunity blinded.

Managers and employees alike can fall into the trap of overlooking possibilities right in front of them. Leaders who cultivate opportunity mindedness ask better questions: What do you love doing? What do you want more of?

By tuning into what lights people up, leaders can expand options, shape more fulfilling roles, and prevent disengagement.

The of ‘Stay Conversations’

In Love ’Em or Lose ’Em, Kaye popularized the practice of stay interviews - open conversations with employees about what keeps them engaged and what might cause them to leave. These conversations are often avoided because managers fear hearing requests they cannot grant.

Kaye’s advice is simple but profound: admit when you cannot deliver, keep the conversation going, and make space for honesty.

By doing so, leaders show that speaking up is always welcome, even if they cannot fulfill every request. This openness helps employees feel safe to share what matters most.

The Human Side of Growth

Kaye also acknowledged that growth has a dark side.

Too much development or overly passionate engagement can lead to burnout, especially if managers fail to notice the signs. This is particularly challenging in remote work settings, where leaders may miss visual cues. As Kaye pointed out, noticing requires intention, and saying what you see is often the simplest yet most overlooked leadership practice.

Key Takeaways

• Growth is more than climbing the ladder. Careers can expand laterally, creatively, and through small shifts in perspective.

• Conversations are the most powerful tool leaders have for retention and engagement. Saying “you matter” often comes down to noticing and naming.

• Leaders can be opportunity minded by helping employees see choices and possibilities that may be hidden in plain sight.

• Stay interviews and honest conversations prevent disengagement and build trust, even when leaders cannot meet every request.

• Noticing is both simple and difficult, but it is the foundation of making people feel seen and valued.

Final Thoughts

Dr. Beverly Kaye’s legacy is built on deceptively simple truths: people want to matter, they want to grow, and they want to be noticed. Her work reminds us that meaningful work is all about creating spaces where people feel valued and have opportunities to thrive.

Leaders who learn to see, say, and support what makes their employees light up will retain talent and help them find genuine fulfillment at work.

Resources for Further Exploration

• Explore Bev’s writing:

  • Up Is Not the Only Way (1982)

  • Love ’Em or Lose ’Em: Getting Good People to Stay (1999, 6th edition)

  • Help Them Grow or Watch Them Go (2012, 3rd edition 2023)

• Learn more about Bev’s work here: https://bevkaye.com/

Unlocking Gifts, Strengths, and Potential: Lessons from Dr. Evgenia Lysova

In this episode of Meaningful Work Matters, Andrew Soren spoke with Dr. Evgenia Lysova, the Associate Professor of Organizational Behavior at the Department of Management and Organization, Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam.

Lysova has spent more than a decade researching what makes employees feel their work is meaningful, how people can pursue meaningful careers, and how organizations can aid this process. Her most recent research focuses on the roles that Corporate Social Responsibility and the Future of Work play in the experience of meaningful work.

Meaningful Work, Defined

As Lysova points out, meaningful work can be described in many ways, but she prefers to view it through the lens of subjectivity - as something that anyone can find in their careers.

“So, it's about personal significance, it's about feeling worthwhile in what you're doing and also valued,” she explains.

Within meaningful work, Lysova also touches on the idea of a calling, which is a bit more controversial among scholars. She refers to it as an “extreme way” of looking at meaningfulness because it stems from the belief that an individual feels it is their destiny to do something specific. However, Lysova doesn’t believe this draws one toward a specific career. Instead, she believes a calling encourages someone to use their skills or gifts in a specific way, regardless of their field.

Meaningfulness in Work vs. Meaningfulness at Work

Although these two concepts may sound the same, Lysova points out an important distinction between them based on the research of scholars Michael Pratt and Blake Ashworth.

Essentially, meaningfulness in work arises from the actual role an individual is doing. Lysova uses nurses as an example because their job requires caring for others, which yields an important and meaningful result — saving a life.

Meaningfulness at work is based on the sense of satisfaction or belonging one feels at their job, regardless of the job they are doing. For example, Lysova says one’s company could have some extraordinary social responsibilities that help someone feel they belong at the organization.

Lysova suggests an individual should search for both to find a more holistic version of meaningfulness.

Gifts vs. Strengths

Lysova distinguishes between gifts and strengths, particularly regarding meaningful work and relationships in organizations. She describes gifts as innate qualities individuals are born with or discover over time, while strengths are developed through experience.

This is one area where organizations play a key role in helping individuals find meaning at work. According to Lysova, in order for employees to contribute their gifts and strengths effectively, they need to feel valued and safe at work.

The Framework for Meaningful Work

Lysova’s work has developed a comprehensive framework encompassing various levels of analysis, ranging from individual characteristics to societal influences, to provide a holistic understanding of what constitutes meaningful work.

Individual characteristics - Lysova explains that personal characteristics such as values, beliefs, and needs shape a person’s perception of meaningful work. Not everyone will experience meaning in the same ways, and we need to start here to find the right person-work fit.

Work environments - An individual does not exist in a bubble at work, and therefore, their personal characteristics will always exist within the context of the work environment. This includes job-related factors, such as autonomy and job design, and organizational elements, such as leadership style and organizational culture.

While individuals are ultimately responsible for finding meaning in their work, Lysova says that organizations bear the duty of ensuring a supportive and ethical work environment that is conducive to meaningful experiences.

AI and the Future of Work

As the way humans work changes rapidly with the introduction of new technology, especially artificial intelligence, Lysova expects this will significantly impact social connections within organizations.

As the work landscape changes, Lysova highlights the importance of self-awareness, explaining that individuals should be cognizant of both internal and external factors that contribute to meaningful work experiences. Mindfulness practices and reflective dialogues are helpful means to enhance awareness and foster meaningfulness despite technological advancements.

Final Thoughts

Believe it or not, there is such a thing as looking for too much meaning, Lysova says. Excessive emphasis on finding meaning may lead to adverse effects, which Lysova says organizations must cultivate supportive environments where individuals feel comfortable sharing their experiences without fear of judgment. She also emphasizes the importance of openness and collaboration in creating a conducive environment for meaningfulness, where individuals can share diverse experiences and perspectives.

Lysova says she is still pondering ways to sustain meaningfulness at work over time. While awareness is a key component, she continues her research to uncover more about this topic. As research from Katie Bailey describes, Lysova also agrees there is a temporal aspect to meaningfulness, which can change over time through one’s life and career.

She stresses that sustaining meaningfulness may not necessarily mean consistently high levels but finding ways to navigate fluctuations and return to a satisfactory level.